Can Orks still kill well...

[ConstantFiles]

In your opinon do Orks have any edge anymore? If so what type of army. Meh, I think the only decent Ork left is one high on Speed.

[Inquisitor Ralei]

Orks are extremely dangerous!
The best tactic is to have as many Custom Force Fields as possible to create an umbrella effect and advance forward because once they get into CC, there's no stopping them with the tidal wave of attacks they have.

[Killermoose]

When they get into combat, they are deadly. I agree though, the Orks best way of getting into combat is lots of fast vehicles, and lots of troops (preferably truck boyz)

[Icarus Athrasuriel]

Yeah. Speed Cults are probably theb est choice for modern day Orks. The traditional force is too, well, too slow for it's own good.

[Killermoose]

Hopefully when the new Ork codex is out (eventually) they will make some changes to ratify this.

[Icarus Athrasuriel]

Yes. I am, however, growing rather tired of the current arms race.

[Killermoose]

I know what you mean, but Orks really do need a redo. After that, and when they've released a DE codex and perhaps a Chaos one, I want them to stop revamping codexs every day. Until we get to 5th Edition.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

Originally Posted by Killermoose

...Until we get to 5th Edition.

when theyll start revamping again. 5th edition wont follow too long after the last redone codex. one year, maybe two.

though i am hoping GW makes the footslogging ork army viable once again, since im a much bigger fan of that look. the kult of speed is still cool though as a minor offshoot, like the Dark Angel variant lists

[Killermoose]

I agree, I prefer the footslogging army to the kult of speed one. Orks are well know as 'the Green tide', or a 'sea of green', and that doesn't really work if they are all in vehicles. We had quite a nice thread going on the old GW forums about what changes the Orks needed, which were things like Choppas adding +1 strength, some 5/6+ feel no pain rule for normal troops, tougher bosses (with the normal feel no pain rule), and a better Power of the Waaagh, amongst others. If anyone else here participated in that thread please add more.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

Feel no pain would be a cool upgrade to represent big nobs, warbosses and maybe skar boyz.

hmm. i think S4 choppas is a lot - what i think orks need is a boost to mobility. nothing like fleet (heavens forbid!) but maybe a mob size check can do more things than just double I on the charge. perhaps there could be a list of various things like:

Mob Size
you can make a mob size check for any unit at the beginning of the ork turn. a unit that passed the check can make us of one of the following rules in its turn:

• move 2d6 instead of 6 in the movement phase
• reroll failed shooting rolls (the ork mentality of believe it will happen and it will!)
• double I on the charge
• add +1 S on the charge

etc etc

[Killermoose]

Yeh, something like that was menitioned. Definetly no fleet, but some mob check which could increase movement. Also, Choppas costing an extra point was put forward as well, because everyone agreed that an Ork swinging a massive lump of metal at someone would cause more damage than a gaurdsmen prodding someone with a bayonet. It was also thought of to make Choppas -1 to Armour saves, rather than making anything lower than 4+ into a 4+ save. It's a bit unfair that a Terminator should get the same armour save as a Tau Fire Warrior against an Ork.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

i agree with choppas being -1 save father than heavy close combat weapons, but GW seems dead-set against the save modifier idea. so ive resigned myself to the choppas being 4+ save!

+1 points for choppas would make the orks more expensive, which is counter productive i think. what they need is to get cheaper (not really, but the last thing they need is go up in points)

[Killermoose]

I supose, but +1 strength for Choppas should still be there. They need something that would encourage players to get big mobs of them (I'm not too sure what though)

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

i think the option for +1 str should be there, but not as a base thing that makes the orks themselves more expensive. like the mob size thng for instance.

though now i think about it, i can imagine orks just getting furious charge now. theyll loose out in I but the +1 str on the charge more than makes up for it i think

so here goes:
10 orks charge 10 tactical marines with the above rule (furious charge)
10 marines = 5 hits = 2.5 wounds = 2.5 dad orks (lets say 3)
so 7 orks = 28 attacks = 14 hits = 7 wounds = 3.5 dead marines. good trade off.

simultaneous I (from current mob size rules) =
10 orks = 40 attacks = 20 hits = 7 wounds = 3.5 dead marines.

result oth rules kill the same amount of marines and orks, just in a different order. so my verdict = FURIOUS CHARGE!

[Killermoose]

Yeh! Looks good! It's always so embarrassing when a sqaud of marines beats a sqaud of orks in combat. Furious charge it is!

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

now ro see if GW realises this before its too late!

though i still think the furoius charge can be gained from a mob size check (again, encouraging the ork player to take big orky units), in addition to other things...

then agian that may be too good.
in turns 1-2 you take a mob size check to move 2d6" for an average of 7" a turn. its also nice and random, which is very orky: giving them the potential of moving 2" (animosity!) or 12" (WAAAGHH!)
then once they are close enough to charge you choose furious charge...
and what in the other turns? could there be something else?

wow this is turning into Rules Dev very quickly

[Killermoose]

Perhaps Orks should move 2d6" all the time. That would make it nice and random, so on one turn they hardly move at all, but on others they rocket off towards the enemy. I like the idea of being able to choose furious charge or re-roll to hit, as Shoota Boyz don't really need furious charge. Infact, I just remembered something else that came up. We thought that Shoota's should have an 18 inch range but be assault 2. What self respecting Ork would use a gun that wouldn't let him charge into CC after using it? Also, we contemplated something like the Bladestorm power (an extra shot from every gun) for them, perhaps that could fit into a mob size check.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

theyre dire avengers with a crap shot basically!

2d6" move all the time is just a bit too random i think, even for orks, though i like the idea of it being a choice from the mob size thing.

[Killermoose]

Ok, or perhaps you could have it if they pass the test they roll 3d6 and select the 2 highest, and move that far in inches, but if they fail they can't move at all.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

hmm 3d6, choose the highest would be an average of 9" (after much speculative mathematical calculations)

very risky, but again, it encourages large units which is orky

[Killermoose]

Theres no fun without risk! Another thing mentioned was Ork pyskers (can't remember their names). I suggested having their amount of power related to how many points were being played, as their powers stem from the Waaagh! It was thought that they should explode if they fail a perils of the warp test (as it says in fluff), and I thought that should be related to the amount of points being played too.
For example:
500 points game: No explosion: Warlock sort of power.
1000 points game: Small explosion: Sanctioned pysker sort of power.
1500 points game: Large explosion: Librarian sort of power.

What do you think?

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

weirdboys (normal psykers) and warpheads (uber psykers)

their power (fluffwise) comes from the amount of orks nearby as well as the amount of combats.

translating old rule sinto 4th edition id give him something like a zoanthrope warp blast wit ha different profile depending on the amount ofunits nearby
so:

no squads within 12" = range 24" Str4 Ap5 Assault1d6
1-2 ork squads within 12" = range 36" Str5 Ap4 Assault 1d6
3-4 ork squads within 12" = range 48" str 6 Ap3 assault 1d6 (also makes a chance of perils of the warp more likely and more deadly)
5+ ork units within 12" = range 48" str7 Ap3 Heavy1d6 (also makes a chance of perils of the arp more likely and more deadly still)

or something along those lines

[Killermoose]

Yeh, that looks good. And thanks for posting the names! Perhaps change the 1d6 to small blast? He could have a few more powers to choose from though, like a 1 shot tank killing blast, which follows the same sort of guidelines as you put above (only stronger). And perhaps a sqaud boosting power too.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

yeah smaller powers would be good, thoug hthe big warp blast os what the weirdboy is all about - puking a stream of psychic energy!

and id say a perils of the warp attack that kills the weirdboy is a headbang = place ordinance template over the psyker. all models under template take a str2 hit +1 str/type of psychic attack that was used. Ap6 (enough to take out a normal ork boy without need for a save )

also they weirdboys have minders which are just bodyguards designed to keep them safe from the enemy and to stop them wandering off on their own!

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

perhaps one of the powers could be allow a unit within 12" to make an ectra mob size check (thus giving them a potential 2 funky things a turn)

[Killermoose]

Those sound like really good ideas! Perhaps another power could be that they automaticaly pass any mob checks they have to make (can't be used with the extra mob size check) What did you mean by 'all models under template take a str2 hit +1 str/type of psychic attack that was used'? Perhaps just a bit of rephrasing, I am a bear of very little brains.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

no im well known to be a very confusing person with the special ability to make other around me confused too. its a gift

above i mentioned the various fire modes of the warp blast, depending on the amount of ork units nearby. if the weirdboy suffers a perils of the warp attack and dies as a result, it means his head explodes with green psychic overload. the strength of the blast is determine dby the number of ork psyches around him
so no squads within 12" (of ocurse his minders dont count as an ork unit - thats incorporated in his own abilities) = str3 hit
1-2 squads within 12" = str 4 hit
3-4 squads within 12" = str 5 hit
5+ squads within 12" =Str6 hit, all at AP 6

[Killermoose]

Ahhh, I see. That makes much more sense! Thanks, thats a good idea, but I'd suggest making all of them +1 strength, so the first is Str4, the second strength 5, and so on.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

they are +1 Str!

[Killermoose]

No, I mean like this:
so no squads within 12" (of ocurse his minders dont count as an ork unit - thats incorporated in his own abilities) = str4 hit
1-2 squads within 12" = str 5 hit
3-4 squads within 12" = str 6 hit
5+ squads within 12" =Str7 hit, all at AP 6

Sorry, I wasn't very clear.