"Enough with Rending" the broken 4th Edition

[Ikarus]

I DID NOT WRITE THIS. I just found it online.

This is a rant- but I am posting it up as we can take what he says and talk about it. He does make interesting points.. but lets talk about em! Profanity.. is in there slightly.






40k. Is 40k. It's fun. Lately I've been playing Hordes.

There's a number of things about 40k that are just ... I don't want to say 'broken'. People love playing 40k, I love playing 40k, if people love it it must be a good game. And it is. A game. Like Sorry! or another game with dice, that's all it is really. OK. I'm lying. It's not just a game. It's the ****ing ruined battlefields of the 41st millennium and THERE CAN BE ONLY WAR!!!!

Here's my 40k *****-list.

1. Rending.

Enough with the ****ing rending. It's gets to the point I hate the word. "Oh does that have 'rending'". "Yep." "Oh OK so everything dies."

You know what should have rending? Yep. Rending claws. You know, Tyranids? Bug-monsters from hell? Space Hulk? Ripping through panels on a space cruiser? Those guys. With the 'Rending' Claws. They're even called that. It's in the name. Deamonettes have rending. That's fine. I don't care if Deamonettes have rending. They're demon-*****es and they have those big ****ing claws on them. That's fine.

You know what else should have rending? Nothing. Nope, not even that. Nothing. OK Shrike can still have it and MAYBE, ONE weird Chaos weapon/character of some kind. It doesn't even need to be a USR, just take it out of the rule book and put it in the army books. The only reason they even made USR was because Hit&Run was ****ed up. And then they nerfed Raptors.

The problem with rending isn't infantry, it's vehicles. Besides rending claws here's the list.

1. Assault Cannon.

Does it need rending? No. It's a multi-shot S6 anti-infantry large caliber machine gun. It's a Heavy Bolter with a shorter range. It's a perfectly adequate weapon. If they want it to be better, give it more shots and give normal dreads the option of tank hunters, and give all tactical terminators the option of tank hunters (regardless of whether they are Blood Angels etc). They're terminators. They're dreadnoughts. They're bad-ass. They probably know their way around the battlefield better than their commander for all that Rites of Battle BS.

Should it have rending? No. It doesn't even make any sense. Have you ever heard the experiment where you can throw 1000 ping pong balls with one force unit at a window and not break it, but if you throw one rock of 1000 force units at a window it will break? That's what happens when you shoot a Land Raider with a large caliber machine gun. Nothing. Armour piercing weaponry is pretty advanced science. You can't just keep throwing rocks at a tank and think you're going to penetrate the hull.

2. What else has rending. Harlequins have it now but I'm saving it. Lightning claws. Lightning claws don't actually have rending. But it would be cool if they did. They had something similiar in 2nd ed. Space Hulk was Genestealers vs Terminators. Genestealers have rending. Terminators have Lightning Claws. If it has anything to do with Space Hulk, it must be good. Lightning Claws are cool. If not rending, give them 2d6 armour pen like Chain Fists. Does it need it? Sure. Should it have it? Why not?

3. Something else has rending. OK Harlequins. Harlequins get it now. Since I'm a weird nerdy Eldar player I know the Harlequin Kiss used to wound on a 2+ and did not ignore armour saves.

Does it need it? What's wrong with the wound on a 2+? It's a Witchblade without the armour piercing. OK so Harlies get Furious Charge, maybe it's not such a bad idea giving them rending over wound on 2+ (since they can take advantage of the S4 on the charge). I don't really know what they could have, to be honest. Maybe re-roll to-wound like Living Ammunition.

Should it have it? Again, vehicles. It's the Eldar equivalent of Living Ammunition -- it's a poison weapon basically. On a furious charge rending hit (1/3 of hits after the vehicle has been moving) it counts a S10 weapon, same as a blow from a Carnifex, Dreadnought or Wraithlord. It can destroy a Land Raider or demolish a small building. No it should not have rending.

4. Eldar Rangers count as AP1 on a to-hit roll of 5+/6+. That's a cool rule. Sisters of Battle get something similar. Not rending, but armour piercing. The AP1 Sniper Rifle can technically get a pen when the AP roll is a tie but that's cool cause it can pen AV 11 on a roll of 12 anyway. Since that's just how awesome they are. The Sisters of Battle rule gives them AP1 on a wound roll of 6+. Doesn't effect vehicles. Those are cool rules.

5. ****, that's what it was. Death Company. They gave the Death Company rending. I guess they're just REALLY REALLY pissed the **** off. "For Sanguinius!!! AHHHHHH! ****ing Mephisto that guy needs to learn to chill." No, and no. Enough with the ****ing rending. Use some imagination.

2. Tau vs MEQ

Stand and shoot Tau vs assaulting MEQ is a cliche. Tau shoot, MEQ die, MEQ reach the lines, Tau die. See who wins. It really just comes down to rolling dice. Something's wrong with the game. I'm not saying it's not fun, it's just not fun when you've done it more than once or twice. You know how much that **** costs? You wonder why Ebay is full of Tau armies. Should you be able to fire stand-and-shoot weapons (heavy and rapid-fire) on the move? A sort of reverse twin-linking where you have to hit twice for it to count? Maybe scenarios can change, or deployment (more use of deep strike and better use of reserves). Fixed army lists? Or maybe things are fine and it's just a game meant to played for fun.

3. Imperial Psychic Powers

Librarians are WAY overpowered. Inquisitors (especially Inquisitor Lords) are underpowered. Fear of the Darkness is overpowered. So is the pinning one. I don't care. It is. It's my *****-list. Witchhunter Inquisitor powers are OK. But they could be better. They kind of suck, actually. There's no reason why they can't be better. Ordos Malleus powers are all about fighting demons. And that's it, really. They could stand to have a couple more powers that effect the enemy's morale in some way, or even Eldar-esque helping powers. "For the Emperor!" Hopefully when Ordos Xenos is done all Inquisitors will get a bit of a boost. Cause they're cool.

4. Monstrous Creatures and Vehicles

Lots of people complain about this, it must be a valid point. I like the rules for vehicles, I don't think there's anything wrong with them. It's only a six turn game. You get smoke launchers to keep them alive. They can pop on one shot or they can last all game. If your plan revolves around them take two. People don't like vehicles because your opponent can score a moral victory by popping your favorite unit with one shot. That's why it's called Heavy Support. You get Troop choices for a reason. Now get out there and seize some objectives.

Monstrous Creatures tend to be more reliable, ESPECIALLY the ones with 4++ invulnerable saves. No invulnerable? Run them through a forest. And they don't suffer from Crew Shaken, either. I have to admit they could probably use a small nerf. Maybe give each existing Monstrous Creature an extra wound and then make certain weapons cause multiple wounds. Or how about this: the number of wounds caused is based on a difference between the strength of the weapon and the toughness of the MC. So if you hit a T6 MC with S7/S8 it causes 1 wound, and if you hit it with S9/S10 it causes 2. Certain weapons could have bonuses to this, and certain MC's could have rules mitigating it.

[Wakim]

I didn`t like rending at first

But eventually got used to it.

There are other things that seem wrong. For some reason vehicles seemed a little weak

But the you usually KILL a rending squad before it gets in CC with you vehicle. Unless it`s a Fex or pesky Harlequins But Harlequins are vvulnerable under 24" so you can Rapid Fire them to death.

Nidzilla armies are annoying

As for Tau, didn`t Eldar use to be as strong at range as the Tau are now?

[hairyyahoo]

whoa, that guy seriously needs to lay off the sugar!

[Dragoon King]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

whoa, that guy seriously needs to lay off the sugar!

You haven't been giving him those Pixie Sticks I threw your way, have ya? Seriously, I wouldn't know what it's like to have TOO much Rending, the only Chaos unit that gets it is Possessed, and I don't use em.

[God_Grinder]

well he does have a good point. its alil outa control. specaly the ass cans and deathco.

[Warmaster Romulas]

he has a point on some things but
your army is what you make of it
not what someone else wants it to be
rending should be applied to some things its not but hey we dont make the rules we play by them
if you dont like them you can change them in home grown games

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah I think he is right though. 4th ed. is slowly turning back into 2nd. and there is a reason why we switched in the first place.

[kenshin620]

awwww but I like ass can rendering (gives me an edge agaist chaos)

[Warmaster Romulas]

hey joe did you even play 2nd ed
its apples and oranges
believe me there is a huge diff between 2nd and 4th Ed
its not even close

[JoeGuardsman]

Oh, I feel insulted. Of course I played 2nd ed. and I was merely comparing 3rd to 4th in relation to 2nd. Maybe I just need to flesh out my opinions more. I'm just saying that weapons are getting crazier and army lists are getting more powerful. Special characters are effecting the game a lot more although it is different from 2nd a little. In 2nd the characters would destroy all in their path. The new version of characters are changing the game more with the way they effect army lists. Off the top of my head Sammael, Belial and Lysander. Abaddon of course is actually a 2nd edition character come to visit, he is very very mean.

It is still apples and oranges but I'm tasting some apple in my orange juice or vice-versa depending on which edition is what fruit in our analogy.

[Warmaster Romulas]

well when you ecplain it like that i can understand your gripe with it
i dont agree but at least now i know what you are referencing

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by God_Grinder

well he does have a good point. its alil outa control. specaly the ass cans and deathco.

Death Co may have a bit powerful rules... But whenever the 'free' death company marine costs me a minimum of 20 pts. when I take a tactical squad (compare vanilla tac squad to Blood Angels one, etc..) I think people who whine can just stfu.

I'd much rather have a toned down death company than every squad that grants me a 'free' DC marine being jacked up in price.

They're really useful w/ Jump pack, and that makes every DC marine essentially 25 pts.... Take tha view of it, and the above ranter and most whiners about 'broken' death company loose ground fast.

[Dan296]

hmm...im kinda 50/50 on that.
ive never faced harlies so i wouldnt know about em

a friend plays tau, and very well. theyre mechanized, and with my assaulty marines i NEVER get an easy game. sure theyre similar, but arent all games similar? theyre the same type of armies!! using the same rules!!!

I HATE ASSAULT CANNONS!!!!
ok heres a rant of my own.
assault cannons are way too overpowered. heres the fluff behind them. the ad. mech. developed the assault cannon for the ad. ast. instead of the autocannon because the ad. ast. said they wanted a reliable gun that shot more, even at the expense of strength. ok. so....how can you compare the two? assault cannons have a higher rate of fire, for less strength. auto cannons have lower rate of fire, for higher strength. ok. so...
why are assault s6 while auto are s7? and assault gets double the shots? AND rending!?!!? wheres the logic in that!!
"Oh but i love my assault cannons i have a smurf army of all terminators and tornado speeders! hey im in 24'' thats 400 shots now. sucks!"
*EXTERMINATUS ON YOUR FACE*
*IMMA CHARGIN MAH LAZAR!!*

Death company....never faced em. BUT: they shouldnt have rending. if i cant have chainaxes and calvor cant have choppas, your chainswords shouldnt be suddenly 'extra choppy'

monstrous creatures though, i disagree with. they are also apples to oranges. tanks are vulnerable in close combat, but you can move faster, and a kitted leman russ is far less expensive then a kitted carnifex or hive tyrant. MCs are so hard to kill because that carni weighs in at about 5 tons. a lascannon, though it is a killy beam of mega-death, isnt going to take it down in one shot. a daemon prince has tens of thousands of years of chaos soaked into every orifice. a plasma cannon isnt going to toast him in one, or three, shots.

[Lord Commander Erus]

The Death Company don't get rending due to the properties of their weapons, like the Old Berserkers or Orks.. It states clearly in the codex (Black Rage Rule) that the rending is gained from the berserk fury the death co. get when they are in battle, and the flurry of attacks that are above even a nromal Astartes strength.

That aside, I think Khorne (and all gods) should have their own 'death co' type selection. For Khorne it could be a squad of Berserkers with Chosen statline, basic berserker bits and rending. Make them cost what D.C. cost, or generate a free one for every berserker squad you take, and i'd be fine with that.

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

The Death Company don't get rending due to the properties of their weapons, like the Old Berserkers or Orks.. It states clearly in the codex (Black Rage Rule) that the rending is gained from the berserk fury the death co. get when they are in battle, and the flurry of attacks that are above even a nromal Astartes strength.

That aside, I think Khorne (and all gods) should have their own 'death co' type selection. For Khorne it could be a squad of Berserkers with Chosen statline, basic berserker bits and rending. Make them cost what D.C. cost, or generate a free one for every berserker squad you take, and i'd be fine with that.

yeah but even a seriously pissed off marine having the worst day of his life ain't gonna be able to drive a chainsword into a landraider and have it blow up, which is all too possible with rending. it just ain't kosher.

[Wakim]

Change them to power weapons :P

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

yeah but even a seriously pissed off marine having the worst day of his life ain't gonna be able to drive a chainsword into a landraider and have it blow up, which is all too possible with rending. it just ain't kosher.

but you got to remember that close combat is a combination of every thing possible from swinging the chainsword to shooting to biting headbutting to kicking and tossing grenades its all broken down into the little formula that we roll a few dicefor instead of rollong for every indivifual thing

now even with the rending its hard for a marine to kill a LRaider but how would he do that?
maybe prying open a pannel and tossing a grenade in
its so hard to do with a trooper with rending meaning you have to think of what he could have done to make it happen

thats what i think anyway

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

yeah but even a seriously pissed off marine having the worst day of his life ain't gonna be able to drive a chainsword into a landraider and have it blow up, which is all too possible with rending. it just ain't kosher.

I didn't say the RENDING rule itself isn't broken. I personally think the effect shouldn't apply to vehicles at all.

he DC do deserve something above Furious Charge, etc.. And rending is really about the only thing.

If they kept all the special rules they have no, and added say... Power weapons... Can you imagine how broken they would be THEN? And normal CCW attacks just don't sit will with me.

Make rending not count against vehicles, and give the DC the option to carry 1-3 power weapons (to represent sergeants falling to the rage) and i'd be happy.

[JoeGuardsman]

That is pretty much the problem in a nut shell. The current trend towards universal special rules in 40k is making for a little too much rending. Whether you agree with the rant or not you have to agree that more and well designed unit specific special rules would be more desirable than everyone having rending. Also on the track of special rules why make stubborn and heavy close combat weapons universal only to take them away from everything. The only thing with stubborn anymore is the Space Pope and I can't think of anything with heavy close combat weapons anymore.

Quick fantasy thing, opposite of 40k you have army wide special rules flying around that are causing a big fuss. High Elves always striking first, rumored Dark Elf hatred, Ork Waagh move.

[Dan296]

rending against vehicles is actually pretty hard to do.
shooting: you have to hit, then when you roll for your strength+d6 roll, you have to get a 6 to get the rending. if you get a 6 to hit it doesnt give you an extra dice, its the S+d6 roll.

CC: its actually much harder to do in close combat. you have to, almost always, roll a 6 to hit a vehicle cause it moved, and then roll another 6 to get rending. thats, what, a one in 36 chance?
of course when you have 10 genestealers with 3 attacks each....

but with death company, it doesnt really matter. sure youre pissed cause sang got a claw to the face, but even a space marine to the second power shouldnt be able to, fluff wise, pry open a panel in a meter thick adamantium armour of a freakin land raider.

i agree with erus: it shouldnt apply to vehicles.

[Cirative]

I like assault cannons and don't understand how they're "overpowered". I understand why they have the Rending rule: It states right in the rule book that a Rending weapon "may be a weapon with such a focused rate of fire that might can rip an enemy to shreds" [paraphrased]. And an assault cannon fits that description perfectly with its design. Four shots also seems acceptable.

Maybe it's just me but it seems logical and unbroken...

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by Dan296

rending against vehicles is actually pretty hard to do.
shooting: you have to hit, then when you roll for your strength+d6 roll, you have to get a 6 to get the rending. if you get a 6 to hit it doesnt give you an extra dice, its the S+d6 roll.
.

are you sure?
i thought a regular attack on a vehicle was S+1d6 and rending gave an additional d6 making it S+2d6

i mean if you shot an ass can a vehicle it would be weapon strength + 1d6 or 6+1d6 and 6+2d6 if it rends

that is how i interpret the rules
is this right?