GW and how they are killing 40k! - Page 2 - 40K Terra

Dan296 · 06-07-2007

ummm....theyve only done ONE THING to space wolves since they came out. 13th company doesnt count, cause they arent really the 13th company.

JoeGuardsman · 06-07-2007

I was a younger kid when I joined. Though I was the serious kind. I can't exactly blame them for making money off of an available clientele even if I don't agree with it.
One thing that I believe though like Wolf was starting to say is that the game won't die. The buisness aspect will die and the game will shrink way back down to small corners in independent hobby shops where it can be slowly revived by niche gamers again. If this is to happen I'm interested in seeing what happens because while the game is a more balanced right now things were interesting in the hands of the game's creators who were just humble gamers themselves.

Steellegioncpt · 06-08-2007

well said gentlemen all of you. Im happy that we are making a good arguement and discussion out of this.

For starters I did not mean to spark up any alarm (at least not at this much of an alarming rate) I did get back from the Bunker on the day I posted it, and had (YET ANOTHER) a bad experience there and got a bit too fed up. So YES I did rant a bit.

My biggest concern right now is not how badly the Chaos codex may or may not get nerfed, its just the direction GW is going (or might be going).
I truely believe that they are abandoning their veteran gaming market to younger gamers. This really started a long time ago when they started taking the **Warning game intended for players ages 14 years and older** (though I dont know the exact words it was really close to that and delivered the same message.

I remember this because when I was 12 (yes I too was a young gamer) I wanted to get into the hobby, and my local store keeper warned me that I should wait before getting too deep into the game ( haha LOOK AT ME NOW) **cough cough** Though I did wait and watched as the veteran gamers at the time played and painted.

The point being is rather simple, and I have stressed this more then ever. GW can give two ***** and a whistle as to the fate of the models after they are purchased hell I would be surprised if I saw a leman russ or two in some kids toy bin at home.

It is this realization that really has driven me from the game (extremely mostly buying anything more). They are loosing the true hobby of the game, and its all a sales gimick (WD as sales catalogue anyone)

As mentioned earlier this is a niche game, and the company is really forcing it not to be, and its really damaging. Suddilty in this world will make you unnoticable to the sword of the Money Daemon lol

So please anyone have anything to share that will change my mind thay they havent lost hope in us old folks. Or are they just gettin those young whipper-snappers?

DeAd_cOmMaNdO · 06-08-2007

oh im pretty sure theres no hope for us, other than any hope we care to conjure out of this 'bad' situation.

i too was a young gamer (the Dead Commando is 23 now, and has been gaiming since he was 8... yes 8, so you can pretty much say hes a lifer! and, for arguments' sake, he was never an obnoxios kid. he was one of those who just sat down on the floor of his local indie reading codex books from cover to cover. True!). anyway, as i was saying, i remember a time when white dwarf was good, and the game was fun and challenging, and life was cheap, and things called DVDs werent even a dream and... well you get the idea. its called nostalgia, and it applies to everything, not just GW. becuase of some strange law of physics no one can yet explain, people will always say things were better back in the day.

not to say i dont think GWs gone downhill from say the days of late 2nd edition (yes i know us old folks keep on bringing that old game up. you know why? it was fun. not necessarily good, but fun, and the updates on WD were great and releases were splashes and not the crazy full-army-never-get-anything-else-new-until-next-edition-comes-out stuff), but i do think many people will complain about the present just for the sake of glorifying the past.

i used to game a lot more than i do now. now that i work and... stuff, i dont have much time for gaming and roleplaying. i do keep in touch with the hobby as muchas possible, buy models when the urge rises, and continue painting commissions and for myself, but its been... a while since my last game. the way the codex books are going, i doubt ill get excited about playing any time soon. granted, we havent seen the Chaos book yet, but if its anything ike the Dark Angels one, i wont be impressed.

dont get me wrong, there are many things about the DA book i like - like marines coming with grenades and pistols as standard; squads being 5 or 10 man; 10-man requirement for heavy weapon and cheap rhino - i just loathe what Jervis done with the wargear lists. i understand they are catering the books to noobs and kids but, what im ultimately driving at here is...

i began this game at the age of 8. i took the time to read the rules and pour over WD and the codices and i learnt the rules, as 'complex' as they were. anyone interested in the game as more than a passing pokemon fad will do the same, and i feel that these are the people GW should be selling to. they are the kind of players who will pour their hard earned cash (far more than they should can really afford, if theyre anythign like me...) into the hobby, and not the craze-oriented kids who(se parnts) may spend a bit at once, but who will drop out in less thana year.

but having said that, as long as GW keeps making models i like, charges prices that i dont think are insane (sure some things are expensie, but this is a hobby not a necessity. if you think the cost outweighs the fun of an item - dont get it!), and keeps on making the artbooks and background books i love, then ill stick around. i may be lurking in the shadows rather than being at the forefront,but ill still be around, waiting for the time the Vets can shine once again.

wow, that really did turn into a rambling rant didnt it!

wolfpack · 06-08-2007

Well said commando...here here! *load applause and acolade*

Dan296 · 06-08-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAd_cOmMaNdO

i began this game at the age of 8. i took the time to read the rules and pour over WD and the codices and i learnt the rules, as 'complex' as they were. anyone interested in the game as more than a passing pokemon fad will do the same, and i feel that these are the people GW should be selling to. they are the kind of players who will pour their hard earned cash (far more than they should can really afford, if theyre anythign like me...) into the hobby, and not the craze-oriented kids who(se parnts) may spend a bit at once, but who will drop out in less thana year.

but having said that, as long as GW keeps making models i like, charges prices that i dont think are insane (sure some things are expensie, but this is a hobby not a necessity. if you think the cost outweighs the fun of an item - dont get it!), and keeps on making the artbooks and background books i love, then ill stick around. i may be lurking in the shadows rather than being at the forefront,but ill still be around, waiting for the time the Vets can shine once again.

wow, that really did turn into a rambling rant didnt it!

HOO RAH!!
dam right.
being a teenager, 99% of my income (which is quite small

) goes into.....MINIS!! make the lazy kids work! what is this 'google' of which you speak? in my day we didnt have no wikipedia were i could read up on the primarchs. we read codexes by golly! then when we finished em....we read em again!

Templar Mikeel · 07-08-2007

I'm gonna' go back to the GW catering towards kids topic and rant a little bit.

Marketing this game for kids? Bad idea. Good for selling. The way that they are remodelling the armories and squad options is, made for people who
a) are to lazy to flip a coule a' pages to look at what they can add to thier commander, and
b)kids and/or people who lack all basic math skill except for addition.(Since it was to difficult to figure out how much 3 SM's cost, they only allow you to take 5 extra as a whole and tell you for how much)
Another point, the parents. I can't speak from any experience here, because I'm not old enough to be a parent yet but...
Lets imagine a gamestore. A ten year old kid and his mom walk in. The kid runs over to the shelf, picks up a box and says "Mommy, look at this! They betrayed thier emperor and soled their souls the the Chaos Gods! Isn't that cool mommy?" The boy runs over to another shelf and picks up a Blood Angels codex. "Mommy will you buy me this? Look! They drink blood for initiation! Their very DNA is skrewed up and they're occasionaly taken over by a homicidal killing spree!"
The mother, not wanting to appear to strict, will of course spend sixty dollars on something her son will drop in a few months.

Point being, its not the kids fault. Just bad decisions made on the parents behalf. They should relize that their kid won't be able to play the grim darkness of the far future for very long. They'll quickly get bored, loose interest etc.
Of course, its not the way with all kids, and hopefully not the case of my younger brother.

Whew, rant over.

By the way, I think my friends a powergamer!

masterofweirdness · 07-08-2007

Good point Mikeel, but that goes into parenting, and how parents are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a "hobby" that will only last a few months for their kid, instead of getting him something that will last a lot longer.

But, remember, its not just the "evil kids" who come in and then leave after dropping hundreds of bucks, other people have done it to. And, on top of that, perhaps in some ways, there are even worse people out there who play the game, people who purposely cheat, don't try to paint, and are powergamers on top of that.

Now, I'll admit it, I am a terrible painter, my brother and my friend who both play put me to shame. But, I TRY to paint, and my models ARE painted up to tourny standards, even if they do look terrible. This is perhaps the difference between me and people who don't care. People who just want to win, and don't care about the "finer" parts of the hobby. (on, and funny enough, I like the assembly part of the hobby, I enjoy conversions and the like, just not the painting).

DeAd_cOmMaNdO · 07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Templar Mikeel

Marketing this game for kids? Bad idea. Good for selling. The way that they are remodelling the armories and squad options is, made for people who
a) are to lazy to flip a coule a' pages to look at what they can add to thier commander, and
b)kids and/or people who lack all basic math skill except for addition.(Since it was to difficult to figure out how much 3 SM's cost, they only allow you to take 5 extra as a whole and tell you for how much)

i dont agree with the point regarding the armouries/wargear options. i think ther are far better where they are now (how the DA, Ba and elder codex books place them~)

the problem is the lack of option. marine sergeants cant have bionics, combi weapons, lightning claws, combat shields, etc. thats my problem. at least give us a full wargear list for HQ choices (which ,at the moment cant have bionics, auspexes [what happened to those?], artificer armour etc!

NearSightedFarseer · 07-09-2007

My main beef with the simplified layout is that HQs are becoming homogonized(sp?), not that some weren't before i realize. Its not the approach i'd take, of course, but ultimately its their business.

masterofweirdness · 07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAd_cOmMaNdO

i dont agree with the point regarding the armouries/wargear options. i think ther are far better where they are now (how the DA, Ba and elder codex books place them~)

the problem is the lack of option. marine sergeants cant have bionics, combi weapons, lightning claws, combat shields, etc. thats my problem. at least give us a full wargear list for HQ choices (which ,at the moment cant have bionics, auspexes [what happened to those?], artificer armour etc!

Well, artificer armor was pretty unless anyways...

But wait, vet. sarges can't take combat shields? I thought it was HQs that couldn't take these???

DeAd_cOmMaNdO · 07-09-2007

DA ones cant at least.

07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAd_cOmMaNdO

DA ones cant at least.

I'll have to dig the WD out from under some books, but I believe BA ones can.

DeAd_cOmMaNdO · 07-09-2007

just checed it, they cant either.

see what i mean... minor stuff thats hardly going to alter the game, and why? it will take a line on the page at most to add such things, and im sure its not going unbalance anything.

masterofweirdness · 07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeAd_cOmMaNdO

just checed it, they cant either.

see what i mean... minor stuff thats hardly going to alter the game, and why? it will take a line on the page at most to add such things, and im sure its not going unbalance anything.

Well, in this instance I'll agree with you. Combat Shields were quite useful. And Auspexes could be nice as well. As for bionics, well, I'm not so sure about them, but why not put them in???

07-09-2007

For bionics, when you say 'well why not' GW will counter with 'Well why do?'.

masterofweirdness · 07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

For bionics, when you say 'well why not' GW will counter with 'Well why do?'.

Because we like hardworking companies that are willing to give us all sorts of well balanced options so that every army is different, and we don't have cookie cutter armies.

07-09-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by masterofweirdness

Because we like hardworking companies that are willing to give us all sorts of well balanced options so that every army is different, and we don't have cookie cutter armies.

'But you see.. That little child there will spend enough money in his craze to keep us profitable. Why worry about what you like?'

wolfpack · 07-10-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

'But you see.. That little child there will spend enough money in his craze to keep us profitable. Why worry about what you like?'

Well Unfortunately, that last line has been GW's stand since the revision of the rules back in 2k...ok maybe not that far back but it has gotten worse over the past coupla years, they seem to have forgotten where they came from and what made them so popular in the first place, their customer service USED to be par excellence' now it's more like 10 strokes on a par 3 hole...
Yes, granted they are in the business to make money...but it has become ALL about the $$$ and seems to have left customer satisfaction and input somewhere in the dust...anyone notice that they stopped putting the batch code stickers in the boxed sets?...

Dragoon King · 08-01-2007

The only way I would quit playing 40k is if GW screws up my Black Legion. I think there will be a lot of changes in the new dex, but all of them can't be bad, can they? My friend plays DA and he likes the new dex. I have to admit, I like most of the new DA models. I really doubt GW bringing out pre-painted and pre-built models. I know I won't buy them. I don't think they are killing the game, actually I am very excited with all the new Chaos and Apocalypse stuff coming out. I say don't lose hope, fellows. I think GW is targeting youger players, but they would be daft to turn their backs on the old vets. They know where the real cashflow comes from. I was stupified by the Chaos baneblade, but I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully GW will take more cues from forgeworld and build flyers, droppods, and the like. I just hope that Chaos isn't totally reliant on daemons now, or that the new daemons aren't weak. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

Templar Mikeel · 08-01-2007

IMO, Apocalypse is how there catering to the vets. How many brand new players have an army between 3-10000 points?

wolfpack · 08-01-2007

not friggin many...

08-01-2007

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfpack

not friggin many...

Give me time.. Give me time...

Dragoon King · 08-09-2007

How will the Force Organization work with Apoc? It was just a couple of months ago when some of my friends were talking about battles that exceeded the FO. Can we finally do this?

06-07-2007	#32 (permalink)
JoeGuardsman Sergeant Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Back in NYC Posts: 524 Rep Power: 2 Thanks: 3 Thanked 36 Times in 28 Posts	I was a younger kid when I joined. Though I was the serious kind. I can't exactly blame them for making money off of an available clientele even if I don't agree with it. One thing that I believe though like Wolf was starting to say is that the game won't die. The buisness aspect will die and the game will shrink way back down to small corners in independent hobby shops where it can be slowly revived by niche gamers again. If this is to happen I'm interested in seeing what happens because while the game is a more balanced right now things were interesting in the hands of the game's creators who were just humble gamers themselves. __________________ "Only the insane have strength enough to prosper, only those that prosper may truly judge what is sane."

06-08-2007	#33 (permalink)
Steellegioncpt Each Shot Kills Spam (She never misses) Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Downers Grove IL Posts: 2,124 Rep Power: 4 Thanks: 57 Thanked 126 Times in 62 Posts	well said gentlemen all of you. Im happy that we are making a good arguement and discussion out of this. For starters I did not mean to spark up any alarm (at least not at this much of an alarming rate) I did get back from the Bunker on the day I posted it, and had (YET ANOTHER) a bad experience there and got a bit too fed up. So YES I did rant a bit. My biggest concern right now is not how badly the Chaos codex may or may not get nerfed, its just the direction GW is going (or might be going). I truely believe that they are abandoning their veteran gaming market to younger gamers. This really started a long time ago when they started taking the Warning game intended for players ages 14 years and older (though I dont know the exact words it was really close to that and delivered the same message. I remember this because when I was 12 (yes I too was a young gamer) I wanted to get into the hobby, and my local store keeper warned me that I should wait before getting too deep into the game ( haha LOOK AT ME NOW) cough cough Though I did wait and watched as the veteran gamers at the time played and painted. The point being is rather simple, and I have stressed this more then ever. GW can give two *** and a whistle as to the fate of the models after they are purchased hell I would be surprised if I saw a leman russ or two in some kids toy bin at home. It is this realization that really has driven me from the game (extremely mostly buying anything more). They are loosing the true hobby of the game, and its all a sales gimick (WD as sales catalogue anyone) As mentioned earlier this is a niche game, and the company is really forcing it not to be, and its really damaging. Suddilty in this world will make you unnoticable to the sword of the Money Daemon lol So please anyone have anything to share that will change my mind thay they havent lost hope in us old folks. Or are they just gettin those young whipper-snappers? __________________ Steellegioncpt's Tale of X Gamers Not just a Tale but a Legend**

06-08-2007	#35 (permalink)
wolfpack The Great Wolf Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: BFE Kentucky Posts: 2,238 Rep Power: 3 Thanks: 42 Thanked 69 Times in 53 Posts	Well said commando...here here! load applause and acolade __________________ I am Wolfpack, my fangs are long, my hair grey with age...I am The Great Wolf...I fight with bolter and Axe, my armies vast, my word final. A true son of Russ, my honor above all, I hunt the heretic, the xenos, and the witch and slay them where they stand! My sons hunt our enemies, slay them where they falter and bring their pelts to Fenris The 40K Terra Second Company

07-08-2007	#38 (permalink)
masterofweirdness One of strangess Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Turn around... (if I'm not there I'm usually in Bangladesh) Posts: 2,012 Rep Power: 3 Thanks: 243 Thanked 60 Times in 53 Posts	Good point Mikeel, but that goes into parenting, and how parents are willing to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a "hobby" that will only last a few months for their kid, instead of getting him something that will last a lot longer. But, remember, its not just the "evil kids" who come in and then leave after dropping hundreds of bucks, other people have done it to. And, on top of that, perhaps in some ways, there are even worse people out there who play the game, people who purposely cheat, don't try to paint, and are powergamers on top of that. Now, I'll admit it, I am a terrible painter, my brother and my friend who both play put me to shame. But, I TRY to paint, and my models ARE painted up to tourny standards, even if they do look terrible. This is perhaps the difference between me and people who don't care. People who just want to win, and don't care about the "finer" parts of the hobby. (on, and funny enough, I like the assembly part of the hobby, I enjoy conversions and the like, just not the painting). __________________ Proud member of the FSBGEBS: Feed Stitch Before Getting Eaten By Stitch, Protecting the 40kterra community from a ravenous Stitch. My Blog, my life, my strangeness He is no fool who gives that which he cannot keep, to gain what he cannot lose - Jim Elliot Life, don't me started on life - Marvin the Robot

07-09-2007	#40 (permalink)
NearSightedFarseer Corporal Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Tucson, Arizona Posts: 251 Rep Power: 2 Thanks: 0 Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts	My main beef with the simplified layout is that HQs are becoming homogonized(sp?), not that some weren't before i realize. Its not the approach i'd take, of course, but ultimately its their business. __________________ En Taro Adun Mon-Keigh

06-07-2007	#31 (permalink)
Dan296 Adeptus Arbrites Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,691 Rep Power: 2 Thanks: 14 Thanked 67 Times in 36 Posts	ummm....theyve only done ONE THING to space wolves since they came out. 13th company doesnt count, cause they arent really the 13th company.

06-08-2007	#34 (permalink)
DeAd_cOmMaNdO Conscript Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0 Thanks: 88 Thanked 62 Times in 69 Posts Blog Entries: 5	oh im pretty sure theres no hope for us, other than any hope we care to conjure out of this 'bad' situation. i too was a young gamer (the Dead Commando is 23 now, and has been gaiming since he was 8... yes 8, so you can pretty much say hes a lifer! and, for arguments' sake, he was never an obnoxios kid. he was one of those who just sat down on the floor of his local indie reading codex books from cover to cover. True!). anyway, as i was saying, i remember a time when white dwarf was good, and the game was fun and challenging, and life was cheap, and things called DVDs werent even a dream and... well you get the idea. its called nostalgia, and it applies to everything, not just GW. becuase of some strange law of physics no one can yet explain, people will always say things were better back in the day. not to say i dont think GWs gone downhill from say the days of late 2nd edition (yes i know us old folks keep on bringing that old game up. you know why? it was fun. not necessarily good, but fun, and the updates on WD were great and releases were splashes and not the crazy full-army-never-get-anything-else-new-until-next-edition-comes-out stuff), but i do think many people will complain about the present just for the sake of glorifying the past. i used to game a lot more than i do now. now that i work and... stuff, i dont have much time for gaming and roleplaying. i do keep in touch with the hobby as muchas possible, buy models when the urge rises, and continue painting commissions and for myself, but its been... a while since my last game. the way the codex books are going, i doubt ill get excited about playing any time soon. granted, we havent seen the Chaos book yet, but if its anything ike the Dark Angels one, i wont be impressed. dont get me wrong, there are many things about the DA book i like - like marines coming with grenades and pistols as standard; squads being 5 or 10 man; 10-man requirement for heavy weapon and cheap rhino - i just loathe what Jervis done with the wargear lists. i understand they are catering the books to noobs and kids but, what im ultimately driving at here is... i began this game at the age of 8. i took the time to read the rules and pour over WD and the codices and i learnt the rules, as 'complex' as they were. anyone interested in the game as more than a passing pokemon fad will do the same, and i feel that these are the people GW should be selling to. they are the kind of players who will pour their hard earned cash (far more than they should can really afford, if theyre anythign like me...) into the hobby, and not the craze-oriented kids who(se parnts) may spend a bit at once, but who will drop out in less thana year. but having said that, as long as GW keeps making models i like, charges prices that i dont think are insane (sure some things are expensie, but this is a hobby not a necessity. if you think the cost outweighs the fun of an item - dont get it!), and keeps on making the artbooks and background books i love, then ill stick around. i may be lurking in the shadows rather than being at the forefront,but ill still be around, waiting for the time the Vets can shine once again. wow, that really did turn into a rambling rant didnt it!

07-09-2007	#42 (permalink)
DeAd_cOmMaNdO Conscript Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0 Thanks: 88 Thanked 62 Times in 69 Posts Blog Entries: 5	DA ones cant at least.

07-09-2007	#44 (permalink)
DeAd_cOmMaNdO Conscript Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0 Thanks: 88 Thanked 62 Times in 69 Posts Blog Entries: 5	just checed it, they cant either. see what i mean... minor stuff thats hardly going to alter the game, and why? it will take a line on the page at most to add such things, and im sure its not going unbalance anything.

07-09-2007	#46 (permalink)
Lord Commander Erus.. Guest Posts: n/a	For bionics, when you say 'well why not' GW will counter with 'Well why do?'.

08-01-2007	#50 (permalink)
Dragoon King Destruction Manifest Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Loyall, Kentucky Posts: 2,742 Rep Power: 3 Thanks: 72 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts Blog Entries: 1	The only way I would quit playing 40k is if GW screws up my Black Legion. I think there will be a lot of changes in the new dex, but all of them can't be bad, can they? My friend plays DA and he likes the new dex. I have to admit, I like most of the new DA models. I really doubt GW bringing out pre-painted and pre-built models. I know I won't buy them. I don't think they are killing the game, actually I am very excited with all the new Chaos and Apocalypse stuff coming out. I say don't lose hope, fellows. I think GW is targeting youger players, but they would be daft to turn their backs on the old vets. They know where the real cashflow comes from. I was stupified by the Chaos baneblade, but I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. Hopefully GW will take more cues from forgeworld and build flyers, droppods, and the like. I just hope that Chaos isn't totally reliant on daemons now, or that the new daemons aren't weak. I guess we'll have to wait and see. __________________ “Nothing you can lose by dying is half so precious as the readiness to die, which is a man’s charter of nobility.” George Santayana.

08-01-2007	#52 (permalink)
wolfpack The Great Wolf Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: BFE Kentucky Posts: 2,238 Rep Power: 3 Thanks: 42 Thanked 69 Times in 53 Posts	not friggin many... __________________ I am Wolfpack, my fangs are long, my hair grey with age...I am The Great Wolf...I fight with bolter and Axe, my armies vast, my word final. A true son of Russ, my honor above all, I hunt the heretic, the xenos, and the witch and slay them where they stand! My sons hunt our enemies, slay them where they falter and bring their pelts to Fenris The 40K Terra Second Company

08-09-2007	#54 (permalink)
Dragoon King Destruction Manifest Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Loyall, Kentucky Posts: 2,742 Rep Power: 3 Thanks: 72 Thanked 106 Times in 81 Posts Blog Entries: 1	How will the Force Organization work with Apoc? It was just a couple of months ago when some of my friends were talking about battles that exceeded the FO. Can we finally do this? __________________ “Nothing you can lose by dying is half so precious as the readiness to die, which is a man’s charter of nobility.” George Santayana.