GW and how they are killing 40k!

[Steellegioncpt]

***Disclaimer, this is not your average rant, but rather a well thought out construtive criticism on the future of the game. I am to speak in a mature manner, and hope to get the same response.***

Ironicly this has nothing to do with money or price (but we shall save that for another time)

Shall I begin.


While speaking with a former GW employee we came across a much heated debate among the GW fan base, that is, the new Codices and future rules for the game.

Im sure we are all aware of the suspected rules change, and I can assure that these are not rumors. Examples include: No chaos legions i.e. Iron Warriors (except cult legions), daemon weapons only grant extra d6 attacks, No veteran skills, and you do get a Vindicator Tank... Hmmmm.... sounds to me that Chaos Marines are just Ultra Marines with Spikes?!? The many more rules just proves my point, but I just listed a few.

We are all going to loose, and by all I mean every respected army, our special rules that really made us shine! Though Eldar are the safest since they just had their codex redone woot! But it is the Marines that are going to be hit the worse because it appeals to the younger gamers more, that is discussed as to why later within this post.

Best part No Greater Daemons Nor Daemon Princes as we know them.

There will be one stat line for all Greater Daemons and one stat line for all Daemon Princes. So no Keeper of Secrets rules nor the Great Unclean one

Further more the Armory sections in furture codices are to be removed out right. The reason being that it is FAR too confusing for people to work with the armour. Though weapon choices and such WILL still be list within the Army list section under the Units Characteristics. However, it is HIGHLY unlikely that GW will reproduce the whole armoury for for each. Things such as Master Crafted Weapons and such will be gone!

Like I said we are loosing our flavor, our touch. We are being simplified but why?

The Reason! Im sure that you have all noticed in your local gaming stores the explosion of young kids within the game. Now for my this crowd is welcomed, for I can not exclude people from the game, so that much is OK.

I noticed because I am 5 minutes away from the GW Battle Bunker not to mention it is the HQ for all retail within the Mid-West. Also I live in DuPage County one of the top three richest counties in the nation.

However, its the fact that GW is willing to "dumb down" this great game so that they can cater to the high numbers of children. Rightfully so, children has tons of dispossible income that they can pour into the hobby. Granted it is an expensive one. (stressing on expensive)

I will let you draw your own conclusions, and please this is not a conspiacy thoery. Also I have plenty more to say but I am willing to not mention it for Simplicty sake (seems to be working for GW) lol

I close with:

I say to you Games Workshop please DO NOT sell out your gaming system into a market that can taint this game! Please DO NOT BETRAY THE VETERAN GAMERS. FOR IT IS US THAT TREAT THIS GAME AS A HOBBY, not as some FAD as most children do.

[Ork warlord 'Waazzza']

WOW....this is bad.. real BAD

[calvor]

It doesn't seem good how they are willing to dumb down a great game to make it easier for the younger gamers, anyway they are a business which is trying to make money but it should not be at the expense of the veteran gamers.

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by calvor

It doesn't seem good how they are willing to dumb down a great game to make it easier for the younger gamers, anyway they are a business which is trying to make money but it should not be at the expense of the veteran gamers.

Exactly, sometimes I wonder if they are kicking themselves in the head with some of these new rule changes. I mean are they feeling any remorse for murdering the rules, logically they arent good rules. I mean Scouts as Elites!? Come on

I guess the Imperium won the war, and beat Chaos... I mean in theory with the new codex there are no legions so "technically" we slaughtered them! Take that Iron Warriors!

[Baron Spikey]

Woah! Despite the whole 'younger players are getting involved' i'd really like to see GW rationale for changing nearly everything about the game i love- i got involved roughly 8-9 yrs ago and as far as im aware people below the age of 10 (which im sure this stupidty must be aimed at) were still joining the 40k phenomenom.

If as you've said this comes about then i refuse to have anything to do more with Warhammer 40,000...it just wouldn't be the hobby i love anymore.

[r4wr89]

okay i'm gonna be honest: i really don't like these changes, and i am actually promising here, with all of you as witnesses, that i will allow any person i play to use the current [ie, here and now] codex instead of a future one if [and only if] the new codex is suitably crappy.

sigh..:|
-ant

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by baronspikey

Woah! Despite the whole 'younger players are getting involved' i'd really like to see GW rationale for changing nearly everything about the game i love- i got involved roughly 8-9 yrs ago and as far as im aware people below the age of 10 (which im sure this stupidty must be aimed at) were still joining the 40k phenomenom.

If as you've said this comes about then i refuse to have anything to do more with Warhammer 40,000...it just wouldn't be the hobby i love anymore.

**clap clap** you put it perfectly. As I will point out I have a Khador Record on my Signature. Im moving onto Warmachine, with still the every now and then Warhammer 40k game because I love my Steel legion to death just not the rule set that come with them....

I am predicting right now, you are hearing it RIGHT NOW Just like the HEROCLIX models and how they come Pre-painted and all THAT is how an army such as Ultra Marines will be packaged. PRE painted and PRE assembled to meet the younger markets. AT THAT SECOND it is NO longer a HOBBY at all

[Ion Raptor]

Originally Posted by Steellegioncpt

**clap clap** you put it perfectly. As I will point out I have a Khador Record on my Signature. Im moving onto Warmachine, with still the every now and then Warhammer 40k game because I love my Steel legion to death just not the rule set that come with them....

I am predicting right now, you are hearing it RIGHT NOW Just like the HEROCLIX models and how they come Pre-painted and all THAT is how an army such as Ultra Marines will be packaged. PRE painted and PRE assembled to meet the younger markets. AT THAT SECOND it is NO longer a HOBBY at all

AT43 anyone? prebuilt, prepainted TOYS ready for play.

[r4wr89]

GAHHH NOT THE WORD TOYSSS i hate it when people are at GW/hobby shops and say things like "wow, look at all these cool TOYS"

which is basically the line between awesome game and child's play

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by r4wr89

GAHHH NOT THE WORD TOYSSS i hate it when people are at GW/hobby shops and say things like "wow, look at all these cool TOYS"

which is basically the line between awesome game and child's play

R4wr89.... Dont you think we are coming towards that fine line.....

[Dan296]

there. is. no. possible. way.
they arent. no way. period.
pre assembled and painted? no. thats pure speculation.

scouts as elites? again. no. thats only in the dark angels codex, because they are a GW army (IE, they will all basicly be the same, like world eaters.)
scouts are elites in that army alone (and space wolves but thats another story,) not a normal SM codex army. as for what you say about chaos, i seriously doubt your 'sources.' vanilla greater deamons i can see, because they could do something like this. one basic stat line and points cost, but then they could do-
Bloodthirster: +X points. +X A, +X WS, +X whatever. special rules for thirster.
i think it HIGHLY unlikely that they will delete the armoury sections for everyone. they could do it with dark angels because, again, its a GW army. they could do it with eldar, because they didnt have many things that could take armoury things anyway. in fact, when they added the autarch they also added armoury things! the eldar armoury was also unneccesary because, if you look at the old one, THERES NOTHING IN IT!! 5-6 things for each section. thats about it!!
as for chaos, i can see them deleting several little-used gifts such as deamonic runes or whatever, but not veteran skills. those are still in the codex.
i would also like to know what level your GW employee was working. was he actually doing rules development or worked closely with someone who did? if not, then i wouldnt use him as a credible source. a store manager? they know little, if not nothing as to the inner, inner workings.

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by Dan296

there. is. no. possible. way.
they arent. no way. period.
pre assembled and painted? no. thats pure speculation.

Yes IT IS Pure Speculation, but more or less a prediction, with maybe exaggeration. I was Stressing the point that they are catering to the growing market of much more younger players. Since come on painting and assembling is far too great for them.


Your right the secrets and rumors of the Warhammer 40k game is closely guarded. But like I said I go to the Mid-West Retail HQ to play. And its those kinds of employees that I associate with. Then again the Turn-around rate for employment is ridiculous. But very similar rumors was spotted on another forum site, and one more. So they are relatively close

If you really think about it, and see the huge majority of youngins that go to Gamesday, GW events etc its nuts. So nuts it scared most veteran gamers away.

Btw I did forget to mention this, Defiler looses indirect. Is that your Whirlwind equivalent?

Im sure someone is going to mention that GW is a company to make money. Yes they are all companies are. Fair enough. But they are here to make and keep money, not to make and keep customers.

[TheKiller333]

A rant post to be proud of (Yes, i call it a rant due to the whole amount of replies)
But god.. GW...this 'explosion' of younger players I have seen countless times.. and yes, they are all frankly idiots. I saw one throw a model at someone when he lost. And GW still let's these brats in? (I don't like children)
Fact of the matter is, even if it does turn out to be pure speculation, it really wouldn't suprise me if it happens. People (Mostly kids) are just pure LAZY. They don't want to make their armies, or paint them, they just a huge amount of pretty toys that end up broken soon enough, and they don't understand how it happened (Yeah, stop chewing on the arm).

It does'nt suprise me that they are dumbing down the rules.. but personally.. If they are as bad as it looks, I might give up completely. I always loved 40K for it's sense of strategy, strengths and weaknesses. But it looks to me like that essence will be gone. Look's like only time will tell.

(Sorry for any spelling mistakes, i stayed up till like 4 am this morning on teh pc, so i'm rather tired.

[hairyyahoo]

my friends and fellow terrans, i've been playing this great game since the rogue trader days, or first ed. thats 15 years of loyal gaming. i've seen 4 different incarnations of our beloved 40k and at each change there have been worries such as this, that gw are "dumbing down" for the benefit of the children who are streaming into the hobbie and that the oversimplification will turn away many veteran players. and its true, many do walk away from the hobby. but i put it to you that it will still be the game we love.

now, you may not be able to use the armies you love in the ways that you have become accustomed to but that doesn't mean that they will be totally unplayable, just that you may have to adjust your thinking a bit. my advice to all of you who are thinking about leaving is to give the new system a chance. play it for a while, see the changes in action before you decide you don't like it. i garentee you that the stratergy and tactical elements that make the game great to play will still be a big part of the 40k experience. gw aren't that stupid!

and as for pre-assembled and pre-painted armies? never. gonna. happen. period! this is always another concern for veteran players when a major rules change is in the offing and the phrase "dumbing down for the kids" gets bandied about. the closest gw will ever get to that is the snap fit figures in battle for macrag(sp) and battle for skull pass, that are cast in coloured plastic.

all in all i hear nothing now that i haven't heard at least 4 times in the last 15 years. in my opinion your fears for the future of the game are born of a worried imagination that has some of the facts and many of the ugly rumours.

i say weather the storm and see what the winds of change bring.

[masterofweirdness]

Yahoo... the lone voice of reason in a maelstrom of chaos...

Now, I've been in the hobby for about 1 and 1/2 years now, I don't play much, (though when I play I enjoy it a lot) and am more into the background (as well as yelling at how stupid GW is when I feel it is needed ). Right now, all I can say is wait and see... that and pray that GW gets more compitition from all those other games out there.

Why do I say that? Because, GW NEEDS competition, they are like one of the few TT wargaming companies out there, if they have more competitors then they will work harder to make better rules/background/models/anything, which in the long run will mean 2 things.

A) GW will lose, but we will have other BETTER games out there.
B) GW will compete and continue to sell GOOD 40k/WFB.

As for Pre-painted minis... like everyone has said, its not gonna happen.

[Icarus Athrasuriel]

Woohoo, rant!!

First thing I noticed was...people saying that it's wrong to buy prepainted armies. I agree, however, I'm guilty of this.

You see, for a long while after I fell in love with Space Marines (3 years ago, when I was but a child) I decided to make a chapter, with the full amount of models, based of the Codex Astartes structure. A year on, I was finished, and I decided, ''hell, why not, I'll make a legion''. So, now, a further 2 years on, I have created 3/10 of a made up legion. I am continuing, though it's for fun, when I'm finished, I'll probably sell alot of it.

However, I'm finding that I need help with it (due to a lack of time), so i'm about to enlist the help of a private model painter to paint a Chapter's worth of Marines (A veteran company, 4 battle companies, 4 reserves and 50 scouts, plus support). Does anyone find such a thing wrong to do?


Anyway, I'd like to dismiss all of the rumours. I may just be a teenager, but the hobby makes up a large part of my life. It includes alot of things I love, such as art, strategy, gloating and, my forte, writing. I, like all you vets out there, would be DEVASTATED if such things happen. So, please don't blame this on children in general. It's not our fault, just the snide, cheeky little 10 year-olds who play with models given one paint coat and pretend they're strategical geniuses. Then, when you pull out your sublime Veteran squad, which you spent months painstakingly painting to perfection, ask you to see it. Guess what happens, snap! Stupid kids!

[Killermoose]

Yeah... I'm only a teenager as well, but it does seem that it's kids around the 10 year mark who are most to blame. I played 2 kids that were around 11 or perhaps 12 quite recently though- didn't really have a good grasp on the rules, and still needed help, but thought they had the game in the bag. Suffice to say, I trashed them. It does tire me out playing people that have no idea how to play, and assume you're going to help them every week, even though they don't try to learn (or remember) anything by themselves. It would just be nice if I came the next week and saw them there having learnt a bit more, and made an improvement.

But, I don't think it's every kid out there- just the majority.

[BrainDeleted]

Yes, Teenagers Unite!

Well...I'm ashamed to say I was once one of those kids in your local club that doesn't paint his own models, doesn't know the rules, and didn't like to lose very much

When I first started out in this hobby I was 11 and picked up Space Wolves because I liked dogs...My older friend played IG and I liked how 1 of my squads could tear one of his apart...I got the codex and after I got done reading that I thought Leman Russ was the Emporer and the space wolves were renegade marines

but now 5 years later I'm 16, I can drive, and I much smarter. I put down my old SW host, Turned them into Iron Hands, and started a Kroot Mercenary force....and despite how I was when I was little I earned most of the respect I losted back then back... Oh and now I'm a fluff maniac!!! Only reading one codex confuses you aalot

Moral of the Story: Don't be mean to the inmature brat that picks up the hobby be patient and show them the light, they may just be respectable gamers some day

[Killermoose]

You're right, of course (hell, that was me about 3 years back!). I only have a real problem with them when they don't try to make any improvement at all...

[Dan296]

yea the stupid newbs grow up. if they stick with the hobby, they, like all of us, will turn into stupid vets
Hairy yahoo with the smackdown. ive been involved with warhammer since the end of third edition, so i havnt seen much change at all in that area. but again, rumours and speculation will have to be seen if they turn out to be real. defilers without indirect isnt that bad. some people say they are gaining fleet of giant mechanical claws. who knows.
im sure some vets were pissed when, in the new nids codex, the 'shoot the big ones' rule was removed. or the dark angels with the pre-arranged wargear. stuff like that.

[Steellegioncpt]

Listen you guys are missing the BIG point here. Its not the fact that Younger Generation Gamers are playing the game. But its the fact that GamersWorkshop is Catering to them specificly! That they are willing to loose parts of their game to again, cater to this group.

Everyday when our gaming group would go into the Battle Bunker sit down and start assembling, converting,painting and playing. It was a nice deal.

However It is when we have questions that need to be answered, or concerns that need to be addressed, it is the VETERAN gamers that bite the bullet and Dont get any assistance from the GW staff working at the store. But rather they anwser the needs of the younger kids because A) They can throw the money away at a much higher rate B) Its an unlimited supply (in Theory)

[Perturabo]

GW do not need to cater for the Veteran gamer-its that simple!

You are already hooked, youve spent 100's of pounds/dollars on their products already and frankly to them you are a dead weight because unless you decie to start an entirely new army you will not spend more than few pounds/dollars every now and then.
If you leave its a bonus to them because undoubtly in a few years you will turn back to the hobby and spend a small fortune trying to rebuild your army (which you sold in digust) before you fall out of favour again!

Youre even seen as a drag in the shop because in the eyes of GW all veterans do in the shop is ***** about how bad things are-which isnt good because it puts new customers off, parents dont feel cumfortable leaving their kids in a shop full of grown men (very sad but true). Veterans almost always seem to scoff at playing "noobs" (how I hate that condesending term-we all started somewhere).