[Tyranid Assault] 2000 points

[Eugee]

I've been out of W40K for many years, and just got back into it; I've built a 2000 point force focusing on what I hope will be a terrifying close combat force, with some heavy support to cover them. I have not bought a single model yet (I used to play Space Marines) so nothing is set in stone. I welcome suggestions and tips, and I'll include a little summary of my thinking at the end.

HQ
Hive Tyrant [185]
Hive Tyrant (Scything Talons x2, Adrenal Glands (I), Adrenal Glands (WS), Winged, Synapse Creature, The Horror, Warp Field)

ELITE
Lictors [240]
Lictor x3 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils, Flesh Hooks)

Tyranid Warrior Brood [315]
Tyranid Warrior x9 (Adrenal Glands (I), Leaping, Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

TROOPS
Genestealer Brood [192]
Genestealer x12 (Rending Claws)

Hormagaunt Brood [320]
Hormagaunt x32 (Scything Talons, Leaping)

Spinegaunt Brood [160]
Gaunt x32 (Spinefists)

FAST ATTACK
Ravener Brood [240]
Ravener x6 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Zoanthropes [195]
Zoanthrope x3 (Toxic Miasma, Synapse Creature, Warp Blast, Warp Field)

Carnifex [153]
Carnifex x1 (Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Spine Banks)

Comes out to 2000 points on the button. Quick rundown on my choices:

Hive Tyrant - Wings and scything talons to get into CC quickly and +I to make those hits count first. I was really interested in The Shadow of the Warp (for fluff and to protect my Zoanthropes), but I ended up going with the Warp Field for more protection. The symbiote rippers are point fill, nothing more--I had 4 points left and decided to slap on the WS gland--if I'm toe-to-toe with a character it will help out.

Lictors - Loved them back when I played, and they still look awesome to me. A little pricey, but just the psychological effects of this unit (and fluff) mean I need them.

Warriors - I was looking at winged for a long time, but especially with the number of units I'm planning on fielding, I think the leaping will really be important. Plus, I plan the first turn to position for the 18" charge and massive melee.

Genestealer - I loooved the stealers in 3E. I'm going to play them in 4E. Seems like a powerful unit, who's main difficulties stem from their own reputation. No plans to upgrade them--I figure the 64 models escorting them in are the "upgrade".

Hormagaunt - I'm in love with these guys--just a stupid number of attacks when they hit the line from 19-24" away. Holy crap.

Spinegaunt - I was planning to use Termagaunts, but in the end opted to free up some points to get a Warp Field on the Tyrant and add Spine Banks to the Carnifex. As they are a shield wall for the assault, I felt I should minimize the points I'm investing--and the spinegaunts should still be able to soften the front line a little.

Ravener - These look like hormies on sterroids, between deep striking and moving 19-24" to assault I just don't see a downside to them.

Zoanthropes - All these close combat monsters are going to need some cover fire, and backup synapse to keep the army from falling apart late in the game. I think the Zoanthropes are a fantastic unit--and I really think the Shadow of the Warp could be handy in letting them warp bolt with abandon.

Carnifex - More fire support--between this and zoanthropes (and the tyrant) I should have some decent anti-vehicle ability. I added the Spine Banks as a last-ditch anti-personnel weapon.

All the units here can be broken up into smaller units for composition purposes, of course. Anyway, there's my first attempt at getting back into W40K!

[Sir_Servo]

At first glance the major problem that I see is lack of Synapse creatures. Simple remedy to this would be to split up the warriors into 2 different squads. I would do the same with the Guants. The more units you have the more tactically diverse you can be with them and turst me 16 models strong is nothing to sneeze at.

I will go into more detail below in a different color.

Originally Posted by Eugee

I've been out of W40K for many years, and just got back into it; I've built a 2000 point force focusing on what I hope will be a terrifying close combat force, with some heavy support to cover them. I have not bought a single model yet (I used to play Space Marines) so nothing is set in stone. I welcome suggestions and tips, and I'll include a little summary of my thinking at the end.

HQ
Hive Tyrant [183]
Hive Tyrant (Scything Talons x2, Adrenal Glands (I), Symbiote Rippers, Winged, Synapse Creature, The Horror, Warp Field)

Get rid of Symbiote, not worth thier points. You mentioned something about Shadows of the Warp, but it is not listed here? I am confused by that.

ELITE
Lictors [240]
Lictor x3 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils, Flesh Hooks)

Love these guys. I am not sure if 3 are nessisary in only 2,000 points.


Tyranid Warrior Brood [315]
Tyranid Warrior x9 (Adrenal Glands (I), Leaping, Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

I would either break these up into 2 squads or even 3 squads of 3. Remember that they can be taken as HQ choices as well. I love Leaping and it is so nasty to spring on your oppenant when you declare an assault with Warriors and gaunts on the same turn. You might want to consider finding points for the Extend Carapice. The difference between a 5+ and 4+ is amazing. Most basic troops have shooty ness that can punch through 5+ armour. Space Marines, Chaos, Tau, etc, etc.


TROOPS
Genestealer Brood [192]
Genestealer x12 (Rending Claws)

I have never been a big fan of genestealers, unless you are using them as a distraction for your oppoent to shoot at. Turn these bad boys into twice as many Gaunts and they are much better bag for your buck in my oppinion.

Hormagaunt Brood [320]
Hormagaunt x32 (Scything Talons, Leaping)

Like I said earlier, might want to break this up into two different units. They can then either move together, or if two different threats appear in front of them then you don't have to do threat analysis you can deal with both.

Spinegaunt Brood [160]
Gaunt x32 (Spinefists)

See above. The only other thing is consider death spitters. They have 18" range and shoot 2 times with re-rolling wounds. That is alot of firepower. If you consider the mathimatical out come of doubling the amount shots, 50% longer range, and getting a re-roll to wound is stagering.

FAST ATTACK
Ravener Brood [240]
Ravener x6 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

I am still on the fense with these guys. In some games they do amazing things, but other times they just get chewed to pieces by enemy fire.

HEAVY SUPPORT
Zoanthropes [195]
Zoanthrope x3 (Toxic Miasma, Synapse Creature, Warp Blast, Warp Field)

I have had no luck with these guys what so ever. Ditch them for another Fex if you ask me.

Carnifex [155]
Carnifex x1 (Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Spine Banks, Symbiote Rippers)

Once again Symbiote rippers not very good. Other than that I love Fex's of all shapes and sizes.


Comes out to 2000 points on the button.

Hope that helps,
Servo

[Vlad Von Carstein]

Originally Posted by Eugee

I've been out of W40K for many years, and just got back into it; I've built a 2000 point force focusing on what I hope will be a terrifying close combat force, with some heavy support to cover them. I have not bought a single model yet (I used to play Space Marines) so nothing is set in stone. I welcome suggestions and tips, and I'll include a little summary of my thinking at the end.

HQ
Hive Tyrant [185]
Hive Tyrant (Scything Talons x2, Adrenal Glands (I), Adrenal Glands (WS), Symbiote Rippers, Winged, Synapse Creature, The Horror, Warp Field)

First off drop the Ripper's you have no need of them since this guy's targets wont live most of the time anyhow.

ELITE
Lictors [240]
Lictor x3 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons, Feeder Tendrils, Flesh Hooks)

Cant Argue.

Tyranid Warrior Brood [315]
Tyranid Warrior x9 (Adrenal Glands (I), Leaping, Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

split them into two groups and give 1 group a venom cannon and the other a barbstrangler.

TROOPS
Genestealer Brood [192]
Genestealer x12 (Rending Claws)

Run more. Enough said.

Hormagaunt Brood [320]
Hormagaunt x32 (Scything Talons, Leaping)

Great Choice Horm's cant be toped.

Spinegaunt Brood [160]
Gaunt x32 (Spinefists)

Not really worth it due to the low chance of hiting and the fact there free points for the enemy, once more invest in genestealers there your best friend.

FAST ATTACK
Ravener Brood [240]
Ravener x6 (Rending Claws, Scything Talons)

Good to have but i would drop them till the next rule book is out, people will blast em apart before you get close enough to do any damage. I would say use the points for more genestealers or a devilfex (Twin-linked Devourersenhanced sense's)

HEAVY SUPPORT
Zoanthropes [195]
Zoanthrope x3 (Toxic Miasma, Synapse Creature, Warp Blast, Warp Field)

DRop the Toxic Miasma, you really have no use for it since these guys will general stay out of close combat.

Carnifex [155]
Carnifex x1 (Barbed Strangler, Venom Cannon, Enhanced Senses, Spine Banks)

Spine banks are nice but not needed.

Here is the list i use in 20k it involves swarming and rending....Might help you out a bit to look at it. Also you really don't want that amount of termagaunts since if you lose synapse there all but useless. here is a list to what i play it really ticks off people.

The Great Swarm (2000pts)

[Eugee]

Errrm, thanks for the replies, but I'm a little confused.

There are thirteen synapse creatures in the list, yet both of you said there's not enough synapse.

I should have added in my notes--those squads will be broken up as needed. (I mentioned this at the end, actually.) The warriors will probably end up being 3 squads (1 hq & 2 elite), the troops will get broken up into 6 squads, and the raveners will probably deploy as three separate squads. I just listed them together for brevity.

The Hive Tyrant doesn't have a Symbiote, I put it on there for laughs at first and forgot to remove them later. I mentioned using Shadow of the Warp only when I was searching for how to spend my last few points--I opted to go with the Warp Field in the end.

But again, I'm really thrown off with the Synapse thing. There's 13 synapse creatures in play here--the winged tyrant, 9 leaping warriors, and 3 zoanthropes (who can move individually). If I've lost all of them, the last thing I'm worried about is Instinctive Behavior. And incidentally--if I've done my job correctly, every non-Heavy Support unit will be engaged in an assault.

Elzanith: I read your army list before making mine, too--I'm definitely a quantity over quality guy with my forces. My method to deliver the stealers to the line is to pile 64 models in front of then and hug cover. I'm not chasing that silly Turn 1 assault, I'm looking for the guaranteed Turn 2 assault. If I have to charge an IG/Tau force across an open field, yes--I'm screwed. I'm fronting 91 models with one single purpose--assault. Honestly the 'stealers are just my clean-up hitters. Everything else is capable of assaulting from 18-24" out.

Oh, and incidentally, Zoanthropes have Toxic Miasma & Warp Field by default, it's part of their base cost. :lol:

The spinegaunts are a fleshwall to cover my approach. I will gladly sacrifice 160 points to get my stealers, hormies, and raveners into an assault.

[Vlad Von Carstein]

Thing is tanks can target who ever they want. and marines have ap5 weapons nothing in your army except your tyrant\zoanthropes\warriors can live against even 1 hit. Swarming is great but you need harder to kill units, warriors well great will go down very quickly to flamers same for your whole army. Thats why we are saying synapse is important you will lose all your current synapse very very quickly in battle. (ap5 = normal marine...)

[Sir_Servo]

Sorry I wasn't more clear either. The number of models with Synapse wasn't my worry it was the number of units. I saw only 2 the H. Tyrant and Warriors (to be honest I forgot that Zonethorpes were Synapse Creatures, yes I know it states that in your entry, but some how I still missed it). I would definately recomend breaking down the units into smaller ones to cover a wide range of the board so that you don't have to worry about synapse.

Because of the FOC it is always a good Idea to have your units split up as you are going to field them. I have made a few different bugs lists where I all of a sudden kick myself because I have to many troops choices.

As the list stands right now the genestealers can get shot up no matter what, unless they are in terrain, next edition will be a little bit easier for them to hide seeing as how models will block line of sight.

If you have any friends that still play 40k, I recomend that you proxy your list for a few battles and figure out what works for you.

My two cents,
Servo

[Eugee]

I'm on the same page with you now. Yes I'll have the warriors in 3 squads and the troops will take up 6 slots, too. Most likely 16x2 spinegaunts, 16x2 hormagaunts, and 8x2 genestealers.

I've been looking at my genestealers to possibly be a turn 3 assault, by using terrain to cover their approach. Where the raveners can move 19-24" in a single turn to make an assault, the genestealers will greatly benefit from not rushing to be in the first hit.

I definitely can't wait until 5E, as my spinegaunts are going to serve their purpose well then--a meat shield to cover the approach of my warriors, stealers, horms, and raveners. I think not being able to fire through friendly units is gonna be... weird for the shooty guys... but anyway.

[Vlad Von Carstein]

Why not give them with out number? thats lots of fun on meat shields.

[Eugee]

Originally Posted by Elzanith

Thing is tanks can target who ever they want. and marines have ap5 weapons nothing in your army except your tyrantzoanthropeswarriors can live against even 1 hit. Swarming is great but you need harder to kill units, warriors well great will go down very quickly to flamers same for your whole army. Thats why we are saying synapse is important you will lose all your current synapse very very quickly in battle. (ap5 = normal marine...)

I'm in complete agreement with your point--my army can get carved up during my opponent's Shooting Phase. If I ever finish my turn, standing within 12" of my enemy--I'll just shake his hand and apologize for not having any understanding of an assault army. Between Lictors and assault units that can strike from a minimum of 18" away and as far as 24", the goal is to land the Turn 2 charge and keep the game locked up in a LoS blocking close combat--period.

If you fail to do that--this army dies, and I'm ready to face that.

Bolters don't kill tyranids they can't target. Whether they can't hit because of blocking terrain, or couldn't fire an appreciable amount of shots because they had to move to get a fire lane, or because they are being murdered from their back ranks by a lictor--the tyranid assault swarm has the responsibility to remove the enemy's ability to blow holes in them until they engage the assault.

re: Without Number
Because they're are a meat shield. Their purpose is to soak up the enemy fire on the way in. Once the force is engaged I don't need the shield anymore. My primary target for the spinegaunts to try to engage (if they make it across the board): Independent Characters. Swing that mighty powersword around, Captain--I've got plenty of 5 point wounds to keep you busy while I murder the rest of your army. I could see Without Number being good for claiming in the late game, but I don't see them being beneficial (or even affecting the battle) with the delay involved in getting them back into the fray. If I was going to spend another 96 points on this army, it wouldn't be on Gaunts.

[Sir_Servo]

With out numbers is great for large games and Apoc Battles, but for the points they are not wroth it in normal missions.

THe last point I would like to suggest is a serious consideration of using devours/deathspitters (don't have my codex with me at the moment, but they are the 18" range guns that are -1 St. of the creature, but fire at Assault 2x.) These things are pretty cheap and at 2 shots per gaunt with an increased range and re-rolling wounds you can't beat them. They get over looked alot because of the -1 St., but the increased range twice as many shots and re-rolling missed wounds.

I would just recomend trying them out and see how you like them. the curtain of fire that comes out of these little buggers, hehehe I made a pun, is amazing.

Just more food for thought,
Servo

[Vlad Von Carstein]

Originally Posted by Sir_Servo

With out numbers is great for large games and Apoc Battles, but for the points they are not wroth it in normal missions.

THe last point I would like to suggest is a serious consideration of using devours/deathspitters (don't have my codex with me at the moment, but they are the 18" range guns that are -1 St. of the creature, but fire at Assault 2x.) These things are pretty cheap and at 2 shots per gaunt with an increased range and re-rolling wounds you can't beat them. They get over looked alot because of the -1 St., but the increased range twice as many shots and re-rolling missed wounds.

I would just recomend trying them out and see how you like them. the curtain of fire that comes out of these little buggers, hehehe I made a pun, is amazing.

Just more food for thought,
Servo

True but they cant do anything against high toughness units.

[Eugee]

Main reason I went with the cheapest Gaunt possible wasn't because of the weapon they were fitted with--but because of their purpose. Five point wounds--that's really what they are to me. I'm not going to throw them away for no reason, but their purpose is to plug up a fire lane with the cheapest unit possible, if I have no other cover to accomplish this with.

If I was playing Khorne Berserkers, I'd charge down the fire lane with total disregard, and make it to the other side with most of my force still intact. With Tyranid I'll make a sneaky, agonizing approach that end with a huge jaunt into the assault. If the Spinegaunts take out a model or two before hitting the line that's great, but as long as they are in front, their mission is accomplished. (If they can crash into the enemy's most dangerous assault unit, that's a bonus, too.)

Again, I'm not saying that the suggestions Elzanith has made are bad at all, that's a great proposed army and a valid tactic--but while I like the genestealer, if I was going to employ them en masse I would just play Space Marines. They are my shock troops, which I want to hit the line after the assault has locked up.

[Nanolathe]

No no no... NO! Not "Without Number". No Way! You want to give your enemy free victory points? Did no one read my Tyranid Troop Tactica?
I must not have made it clear enough.

Get "Without Number"... and suffer my Wrath!

In an APOC battle your enemy is going to have pie-plate templates and guess where he'll point them? Right! directly at the place it can do the most damage and net him some tidy VPs. And then when you put your troops back on your edge of the table (Far away from capturing victory locations or any other objectives by the way) they can get splatted AGAIN!... and Again... and again... trust me, it'll grate after a while, and with each pie-plate he's getting 60... 70 points?

Put "Without Number" in the bin, ignore it, never take it... Scribble it out with a permanent marker (ok don't do that, it'll ruin a nice book)

Remember the Wraith...

[Eugee]

Originally Posted by Nanolathe

No no no... NO! Not "Without Number". No Way! You want to give your enemy free victory points? Did no one read my Tyranid Troop Tactica?

Read it!? I printed it off and took it to work! You don't have to sell me on passing up on that mess. As a matter of fact, if you take a look at my force you'll find that there's some striking resemblances between what I listed, and what you discussed in your Tactica! Flyrant, leaping warriors, vanilla stealers, hormagaunts with initiative only, spinegaunt blockers, raveners in fast attack...

Hey, what the hell are you doing in this thread, anyway? Don't you have a HEAVY SUPPORT TACTICA to write?

[Vlad Von Carstein]

My point was with out extended Carpace at least your stealer's will never make it across the board, against any good player at least.

[Nanolathe]

Originally Posted by Eugee

Hey, what the hell are you doing in this thread, anyway? Don't you have a HEAVY SUPPORT TACTICA to write?

I had no idea I was banned from posting before I finish

[Sir_Servo]

!?!?! VP in Apoc games are you crazy. When my 3 battle buddys and I throw down in Apoc games with about 5-10,000 points each the last thing we want to do is count up VP's at the end of the game, however 'With out Number' is very nice for retaining the Control Points in your deployment zone. If you have a squad that just sits there and the enemy drops a pie plate and kills them all any way, then might as well have them come back to reclaim the objective.

If you will notice I recomended staying away from the 'With out Number' in regular games, but in Apoc it rocks. You should test it out some time and just see how it works. Nothing more annoying than having a squad of 32 gaunts re-apear and then feet durring the shooting phase and then assault 12" in order to bump those annoying enemy units from our objectives. Or even better use one of those awsome strategic Assets to have your 'With out Number' 'reserves' come on from your opponents deployment zone.

That is my two cents,
Servo

[Eugee]

Originally Posted by Elzanith

My point was with out extended Carpace at least your stealer's will never make it across the board, against any good player at least.

Why will the stealers never make it across the board. Setting aside the fact that my cover save will beat the extended carapace (if you're not advancing in cover, that's the problem), and that troops with no LoS will not do squat to my stealers (or any other unit they can't see), just look at the raw numbers:

Say I have 12 genestealers with a carapace. You could have 15 vanilla genestealers instead. Extend this number out however you like. 24 = 30 or 48 = 60.

You take 10 bolter shots to this unit (again, I'm ignoring how you left yourself in position to take fire like this, when half your assault force can strike from 19"+ away). 6 of them hit, and 3 of them wound. You save 1, and lose 2 stealers. 10 hit the line with 30 attacks off the charge.

The vanilla squad faces the same 10 shots, and 6 hit, 3 wound, and they lose three. They hit the line with 12 and make 36 attacks off the charge. Multiply however many shots hitting the stealers as you like, the save isn't preventing that many casualties, for the cost. Restating that--it's not how many die that I'm considering--it's how many make it to the line. You bring 12 and 10 make it, I bring 15 and 12 make it (or even 10 make it)--if we spent the same points and got the same amount there, who cares?


Our disconnect though is that in your scenario, the genestealers have done everything but put on blindfolds and light up a smoke. I'm not saying your way is wrong--I'm saying that the genestealers are not lined up in front waiting to die. Tidal wave. Hide and hit them as one wave--take their shooting out of the equation as much as you can. Especially with your stealers!

[Vlad Von Carstein]

Sigh.......ok just play the army and you will see what i mean Cover saves arnt always there and can be easily taken way.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Elzanith

Sigh.......ok just play the army and you will see what i mean Cover saves arnt always there and can be easily taken way.

wait till 5th edition... gunline armies will give YOU cover saves if they're shooting at you from within cover!
carapace for anything beyond warriors is like buying carapace for guardsmen; pointless...
- only the hier to the throne of the kingdom of idiots will NOT target your big gribblies with ap2 or better guns!
- again, only an utter fool doesn't shoot at things like 'stealers with things such as heavy bolters, multi-lasers, ass-cans, shuriken cannons, scatter lasers, burst cannons, missile pods, autocannons, gauss cannons, etc...
high rate of fire + S5/6 and/or ap4. that's the ONLY gun i ever point at a genestealer! (or my deep striking heavy flamer sentinel!lol)

more bodies is ALWAYS the way to go when you're playing a hoard army! why send 10 slightly beefed-up 'mini marines' to do the job that 20 regular joes could do just as easily?! (and typically for the same pts cost...)
quantity over quality wins out every time. (after 3 proxy games for example, my 90 model, 5 TMC 'nid list is unbeaten...)

cheers!