The Ides of Oryn

[Ides]

Ok, here's my army list, though I'll admit I'm a bit lost as to where to invest my points...

Chaos Lord

Chaos Space marines x8 (1 heavy bolter, Aspiring champion with powerfist and plasma pistol)
Chaos Space marines x8 (open to suggestions)
Chaos Rhino

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Well, right off, I would say put the Aspiring Champion in the other squad because you don't want a heavy weapon in what should be your assaulty Chaos Marine Squad.

Next, where do you want to go with this? Are you going for a particular style of play? More close combat oriented, shooting oriented, or do you want a good mix? Are you going to align your army with any particular Chaos deity? Have you considered using Daemons? Are you going to go for a Daemon Prince, or not so heavy on the daemonic gifts? You've got to give us something to work with!

[Stubber]

How many points total is this ment to be?
I'll assume it's about 400pts.
Only 17 men, tsk tsk...

You could put the lord and aspiring champion into the second squad, load them in the Rhino and practice some Rhino rushing while the squad with the heavy bolter runs fire support.

[Ides]

Both squads will have a heavy bolter and aspiring champion. Approximately three from each squad has a standard bolter, one from each squad will have what I assume is either a plasma or melta gun, the other 2-3 has either a bolt pistol and chainsword, or a bolt pistol and a dark blade, I'll add more equipment as I read over the codex for the rules... I may also change around the composition of each squad too depending.

The Rhino has Searchlight, Havoc launcher, smoke launchers, (spikey bits?) and pintle mounted combibolter. I'm also toying with giving it Dozer blades, extra armor and mutated hull.

As for outlook, I'm going for Chaos Undivided with sort of an Iron Warriors outlook on Daemons. As in they'll use possessed marines or Daemon princes, but most Daemons are too unstable to be relied on for proper support. Personally I'd like a balanced force, but the general theology is to bury the enemy in firepower and then finish them off up close.

i was considering adding a contingent of twelve Khorne Berserkers to the mix, but it's a toss up between them and a Chaos Dreadnought...

[Stubber]

Including Heavy weapons and combat orientated troops (pistol and combat weapon) in one squad is a waste.
If you're shooting the combat troops will just be sitting around doing nothing.
In combat heavy bolters won't be able to shoot so are wasted.

You need to specialise your squads, two heavy weapons in one squad while the other is fitted for for combat and little else.
That way you'll find your squads become cheaper and much better at one thing rather than over expensive and alright at everything.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Stubber

Including Heavy weapons and combat orientated troops (pistol and combat weapon) in one squad is a waste.
If you're shooting the combat troops will just be sitting around doing nothing.
In combat heavy bolters won't be able to shoot so are wasted.

You need to specialise your squads, two heavy weapons in one squad while the other is fitted for for combat and little else.
That way you'll find your squads become cheaper and much better at one thing rather than over expensive and alright at everything.

Except that, alas, unlike special weapons, you cannot put two H weapons in a squad unless it's a havoc squad, which is heavy support.

Ok, well, with that knowledge, I think this would be cool and fit your ideas:

Make your Lord a Daemon Prince and (consequently) a CC monster. Don't go overboard, but don't skimp. Give him Daemonic Stature and a Dreadaxe. That will take care of the armour of a range of nasty things, from Chaplains and SMs with Iron Halos, to Farseers, Warlocks and daemons. Since your lord counts as a monstrous creature, he ignores armour saves and with the Deadaxe he ignores invulnerables as well. After that, you should either give him wings and have him go character-hunting, or put him with a cheap Chaos Marine squad tooled up for close combat.

On the subject of Chaos Marine squads, NEVER MIX WEAPON LOADOUTS! Give them ALL either bolters or bolt pistol and close combat weapons. Never mix. Ever. You can put special weapons in the CCW squad, and a heavy weapon (and a special weapon) in the other squad if you want.

Now, for possessed and Khorne Berzerkers, you should decide on one or the other because they're both there for the same thing: infantry massacre. THey also both take the same Force Organization slot, and are both kinda expensive points wise. If you take possessed, give them Daemonic Talons. If Khorne Berzerkers, be sure to give them all Chainaxes because that's why they're so cool (and better than the average CSM at killing things with 3+ and 2+ saves). With possessed, they have the potential of being a retinue for your lord if you want an absolutely devastating CC squad. If you give your lord wingsm the possessed will not be able to join hims as they will not have daemonic flight (don't give it too them, it makes them too expensive. use a rhino instead). In that case, go with Khorne Berzerkers.

Ok, so you've got plenty of infantry-terror. You need some tank-busting. You could make a smaller squad of CSM and give them a lascannon, or get a Havoc squad and giv them Missile Launchers/Lascannons (missile launchers will give them versatility, but they won't be as effective as a team of lascannons in the tank-busting area).

That's all I've got for now.

[Stubber]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Rosenadel

Except that, alas, unlike special weapons, you cannot put two H weapons in a squad unless it's a havoc squad, which is heavy support.

Sorry, it's been a while since I faced chaos.

[Dan296]

did you say an iron warriors outlook or an iron warriors?
with iron warriors you can use basalisks and vindicators.
the deamon prince/dreadaxe/wings combo is an awsome one. farseers look out. though if you arent doing an iron warriors army you can give him a mark of khorne and a zerker glaive. that way he puts out a monster amount of attacks and your zerkers arent taking up an elite spot, and you can still have normal CSM.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Dan296

did you say an iron warriors outlook or an iron warriors?
with iron warriors you can use basalisks and vindicators.
the deamon prince/dreadaxe/wings combo is an awsome one. farseers look out. though if you arent doing an iron warriors army you can give him a mark of khorne and a zerker glaive. that way he puts out a monster amount of attacks and your zerkers arent taking up an elite spot, and you can still have normal CSM.

But the normal CSM end up as Elites. I don't think it's an effective trade. Because they don't have a good mix. You'll want to use elite slots for chosen and possessed, not CSm and Havoc squads.

Although if you do want a real CC monster, Khorne is the way to go... so I guess it could still be an option. But then you don't have the option to assault what you want to assault. Your berzerkers might end up assaulting a tank they can't destroy or some meat-shield target, like scarab or ripper swarms, and just waste turns dealing wounds, but still sloshing through several swarm bases.

Depends on what you, Ides, think is best.

[Ides]

So to verify:
One squad close combat (Bolt Pistol x7, Plasma pistol x1, Chainsword x 6, Power fist x1, Dark Blade x1)
One squad ranged (bolter x5, heavy bolter x1, plasma gun x2)
(I'm browsing the Codex for the rules on veteran skills...)

Outfit the Chaos lord with 50 points plus of daemonic gifts (Daemon prince, Daemonic armour, dreadaxe, wings(optional), Daemonic Stature... Or other ideas. Need to check the codex for points values.)

(If a model has Daemonic stature, and can thus hold a Kai gun one handed, does that mean they can hold another weapon also?)

Chaos Rhino Combi bolter, Havoc Launcher, Smoke Lauchers, Dozer blades, extra armour , mutated hull.

Should I invest in a chaos sorcerer?

And of the three (Berserkers, Dreadnought, Defiler) which would be the better investment.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Ides

So to verify:
One squad close combat (Bolt Pistol x7, Plasma pistol x1, Chainsword x 6, Power fist x1, Dark Blade x1)
One squad ranged (bolter x5, heavy bolter x1, plasma gun x2)
(I'm browsing the Codex for the rules on veteran skills...)

Outfit the Chaos lord with 50 points plus of daemonic gifts (Daemon prince, Daemonic armour, dreadaxe, wings(optional), Daemonic Stature... Or other ideas. Need to check the codex for points values.)

(If a model has Daemonic stature, and can thus hold a Kai gun one handed, does that mean they can hold another weapon also?)

Chaos Rhino Combi bolter, Havoc Launcher, Smoke Lauchers, Dozer blades, extra armour , mutated hull.

Should I invest in a chaos sorcerer?

And of the three (Berserkers, Dreadnought, Defiler) which would be the better investment.

I don't mean to be insulting, I think you should definitely have a look over the Codex again. Because in a normal CSM squad you can either have two special weapons or a special and a heavy, not two specials and a heavy.

In addition, you can't have both a Kai Gun and a Darkblade in your army because only one daemon-weapon is allowed.

The Dreadaxe is also a daemon-weapon, so you'll have to decide between the three. Personally, I'd go with the dreadaxe as Invilnerable saves can get in your way, you don't need a strong gun because your Daemon Prince is going to be a CC monster so the Kai Gun is out, and you don't need a +2 str. power weapon becuase you already ignore armour saves, S5 (6 if you give him daemonic strength) is good enough, and you already get 2D6 vehicle armour penetration.

Don't give the Rhino anything beyond Smoke and Extra Armour. It just isn't worth it. And it already has a Combi-bolter.

Don't bother with a sorcerer just yet, you already have a nasty HQ.

Berzerkers are definitely best for assault troops. I don't like chaos dreads because of the potential of Fire Frenzy, which can kill a lot of your own troops (especially if you have a plasma cannon on there). Defilers are not bad, but they are not meant for assaulting! They are comparatively weak, weaker even than a dreadnought because they have equal armour values and the Defiler has less strength. If you're looking for more fire support in the form of ordance, the defiler is your man.

[Ides]

Hmmmm...is this rule in the codex or in the actual Warhammer 40k Rulebook, because it never leapt out of the Codex at me...?

So Dreadnought = Unstable. Berserkers = Good assault. Defiler = Good Support. Chaos Predator = Good support.

One squad close combat (Bolt Pistol x7, Plasma pistol x1, Chainsword x 7, Power fist x1)
One squad ranged (bolter x5, heavy bolter x1, plasma gun x2)
(I'm browsing the Codex for the rules on veteran skills...)

Outfit the Chaos lord with 50 points plus of daemonic gifts (Daemon prince, Daemonic armour, dreadaxe, wings(optional), Daemonic Stature... Or other ideas. Need to check the codex for points values.)

Chaos Rhino Combi bolter Smoke Lauchers, extra armour.

Are plasma guns special weapons? Because on the GW website, under starting out with CSM, they outfitted a squad with ten of them.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Ides

Hmmmm...is this rule in the codex or in the actual Warhammer 40k Rulebook, because it never leapt out of the Codex at me...?

So Dreadnought = Unstable. Berserkers = Good assault. Defiler = Good Support. Chaos Predator = Good support.

One squad close combat (Bolt Pistol x7, Plasma pistol x1, Chainsword x 7, Power fist x1)
One squad ranged (bolter x5, heavy bolter x1, plasma gun x2)
(I'm browsing the Codex for the rules on veteran skills...)

Outfit the Chaos lord with 50 points plus of daemonic gifts (Daemon prince, Daemonic armour, dreadaxe, wings(optional), Daemonic Stature... Or other ideas. Need to check the codex for points values.)

Chaos Rhino Combi bolter Smoke Lauchers, extra armour.

Are plasma guns special weapons? Because on the GW website, under starting out with CSM, they outfitted a squad with ten of them.

No, the 10 is the points cost. Look at the column headers and it should line up. You wouldn't want 10 plasma guns anyway because statistically about 1-2 marines would get overheats per turn and potentially die!

And with the weapons rules on p.28 under Options in the Chaos Space Marines entry:

"One Chaos Space Marine may be armed with one of the following special weapons:[list of weapons and points costs that I'm not allowed to post]. If no heavy weapon is chosen, then an additional Chaos Space Marine may select a special weapon." Either you have a misprint, or you just need to read a little more carefully.

Otherwise, what you've got looks good!

[Ides]

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense...

And special weapons are chainfists, lightning claws and the like I assume?

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Ides

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense...

And special weapons are chainfists, lightning claws and the like I assume?

Depends on the entry. For example, in the CSM entry, it only lists certain guns as special weapons, so those are the only ones you can take. However, in the Space Marines Veteran Squad entry, it says under Options that lightning claws, powerfists, etc. can be taken.

Chainfists are Terminators only I think, but yeah, under the Chosen Chaos Space Marines entry, if you upgrade a Chosen to a Terminator, he can take a chainfist for so many points.

You just have to read the Options section of each entry to see what special stuff they can get.

[Ides]

Meh, there isn't a particular heading in the summary or weapons list, so I have to consult the options. And by Power weaon they mean chainswords and powerfists, I assume?

[Stubber]

A power weapon is just a weapon which strikes as normal with the models strength but ignores armour saves.

Power fists/ chainfists have different rules that should be detailed in the armoury section.

[Ides]

Fair enough, I'll give it another read...

Edit: One more question...

Is there any particular reason why I couldn't paint a standard Marine Dreadnought my colours and say that it fell to Chaos? I assume that in such a case it would have to follow the same rules as the chaos dreadnought...

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Ides

Fair enough, I'll give it another read...

Edit: One more question...

Is there any particular reason why I couldn't paint a standard Marine Dreadnought my colours and say that it fell to Chaos? I assume that in such a case it would have to follow the same rules as the chaos dreadnought...

No reason at all! That would be cool! I made a small Chaos Marine army once, and they were a combination of loyalist and traitor parts because they had deserted their various chapters and joined a mercenary group.

Just be sure to make it a bit more chaos-y that a loyalist dread and you're set!

[Stubber]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Rosenadel

Just be sure to make it a bit more chaos-y that a loyalist dread and you're set!

You can cover it with spare spikey bits from the chaos rhino sprue and such, just so no one can claim you 'borrowed' it from a marine playing friend.

Don't forget all chaos marines were once loyal to the emperor, including dreads. There is no reason why many loyal Imperial citizins can't fall to chaos.
Examples...Horus, Fulgrim, Quixos, Perturbo, Pontius Glaw, Eisenhorn is well on his way too.

[Ides]

But you see the only real question there is whether the same rules would apply to an imperial dread, as the sarcophagus and machinery don't drive them insane...