5th Ed Instant Death Rulings

[Sir_Servo]

So I was just perusing a copy of the 5th ed PDF and came across the rules of instant death and was wondering what your take on this was. Here is the projected ruling on how it works.


When a unit contains several multiple-Wound
models, and those models take wounds, you must
remove whole multiple-Wound models from the
unit as casualties where possible – wounds may
not be ‘spread around’ to avoid removing models.
Effectively, all of the unsaved wounds caused on
the unit are piled onto the same model until it
dies, then onto the next until it dies too, and so
on. Therefore any excess wounds are recorded on
a single model in the unit, the last to suffer
wounds.

For example: a unit of ten Ogryns (which have three
Wounds per model) suffer 8 unsaved wounds. The
player removes two models to absorb the first 6
wounds and then marks the leftover 2 wounds on one
of the eight models that are left.

When models in this kind of unit are hit by
weaponry with enough Strength to cause instant
death, the player cannot remove the one
wounded model in order to get rid of leftover
wounds, but most remove whole healthy models
first.

For example: the same unit of Ogryns above is later hit
and wounded by a single lascannon shot (strong
enough to cause instant death!). The player removes an
unwounded Ogryn, leaving six unwounded models and
one that still carries the two wounds from the previous volley.

So my question to you all is how would you handle a Havoc Squad with 4 lascannons shooting at the same squad. Lets say that 3 of the 4 hit and wound. Now the squad has 3 instant death wounds to allocate. Would just one model be removed or would 3 models be removed. I can see it going either way and was just wondering what you all thought.

Thanks,
Servo

[Drax]

3 would be removed - its the same with killing blow in fantasy

[Sir_Servo]

I would tend to agree, excpet for the fact that the first part of the rule specifically states that wounds need to alocated to remove whole modles first (ie if I cause 3 wounds to an ogryn squad, no matter what type of weapon causese them, then just one model is removed). I hope that in the finalized rule book they clarify when you check for instant death, before or after wounds being alocated.

Unfortuneately the fantasy argument actually hurts the case of removing 3 individual models. GW has made it very clear over the past few years/decades that 40k is not to be anything like Fantasy. Hence why 40k is not regiment, you only get one save per wound reguardless if you have both a normal armour save and a invunerable save, and a majority of your army can move and shoot with little or no penalty. Not to mention the fact that there is very little to no -1 to hit/wound specail rules like there is in fantasy.

I am just trying to get inmput from every one and see how the inturprit this rule and almost more importanly why.

Servo

[Prince of the Night]

That would be true, but there are still 2 more instant death shots from lascannons that would instantly kill 2 more models " one at a time."

[Kbaughb]

Both are great possibilities, personally I think that it would be 3 models removed, simply because it is extremely unlikely that 1 ogryn would be hit by 3 lascannons at once... but then again, logic has never really applied for GW

[Sir_Servo]

Originally Posted by Kbaughb

Both are great possibilities, personally I think that it would be 3 models removed, simply because it is extremely unlikely that 1 ogryn would be hit by 3 lascannons at once... but then again, logic has never really applied for GW

Exactally, and this would be brining the rule very close to the Killing Blow special rule in fantasy and as I stated before GW definately likes to keep the two games as different as possible.

I just think they need to reword this section. Eariler in the book it says that you alocate wounds before armour saves and such, but here it says if you have multi-wound models that you have to basically "pile" them on to individual models so that you remove whole models instead of having 1 wound on each model or whatever.

Something as simple as just clarifiying when you check for instant death would work. Do you check it when wounds are first alocated, or after they have been alocated to multi-wound models as described in that section of the rules.

Servo

Servo

[Lord Commander Erus]

You guys do realize this PDF was an Alpha stage test book, yes? Means what you're reading was never even play tested.

Most likely it's been ironed out now.

[Spartan-11755]

yea..and alot of the leaked stuff is like normal gw leaked stuff...but it is still something

[SteveBerenyi]

yes, but we know how similar GW and Microsoft are..... Public Release = Beta test.

[Sir_Servo]

I do realize that these are just 'alpha' or 'beta' rules or what ever. However in my experience every time I have gotten my hands on these they have been fairly acruate with minor changes. I am hopping that this is one thing that gets revised simply for clarity sakes.

I guess I was just hoping for a disccusion amongst Terrans here on how they think this rule should read in the new dex.

I mean is it really fair for a squad of Havocs armed with Missile Launchers to take out a squad of Tyranid Warriors in one turn with just a little bit of luck. I see it going like this. Squad of 4 warriors with gear is going to be like what 200 points on average where a 5 man Havoc squad with Missile Launchers is only 155points. Yes you could argue that the squad of Warriors could easily take these guys out in Close Combat, but that is why the marines have superior fire power so as to weeken them before they get into combat. But if they are able to Instant kill all 4 with lucky shots is that balanced? And considering they will get on average 2 rounds of shooting before the warriors get there they should be able to kill all of them.

Just some meanless meanderings of yours truely.

Feel free to coment,

Servo

[Lord Commander Erus]

Considering the new scatter rules, I doubt missile launchers will be doing that.

And I think it's perfectly fair for a squad designed specifically for destroying things with heavy fire power to obliterate such CC monsters as warriors. Just my 2 cents though.

[vinny]

If as you say thw ogrins took 3 laz hits then the weapon strength is used to see if it is twice the toughness of the target if so and you do not get any inv saves ect then 3 modles are killed. But dont the nids get their own special rule over twice the strength against T rating.

[Drax]

yes they are immune to instant death due to synapse.

[Prince of the Night]

Originally Posted by Drax

yes they are immune to instant death due to synapse.

In this case one warrior would die and one would have one wound., unless the new rules set for multi-wound models changes in the new edition.

[Sir_Servo]

*slaps forehead* Doh! I totally forgot about that. Ok well replace Tyranid Warrior with I. Guard Ogryns then.

I am going to blame tiredness and stress for my mental mistakes on this post.

Servo

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

Originally Posted by Sir_Servo

Exactally, and this would be brining the rule very close to the Killing Blow special rule in fantasy and as I stated before GW definately likes to keep the two games as different as possible.

I just think they need to reword this section. Eariler in the book it says that you alocate wounds before armour saves and such, but here it says if you have multi-wound models that you have to basically "pile" them on to individual models so that you remove whole models instead of having 1 wound on each model or whatever.

Something as simple as just clarifiying when you check for instant death would work. Do you check it when wounds are first alocated, or after they have been alocated to multi-wound models as described in that section of the rules.

Servo

Servo

Yes they are different systems and are kept different but there will always be overlaps. 3 models will be killed as technically you work out each wound at a time you just roll all at the same time to save time. So yes you work out each wound individually so one model is instant kill you can't add 2 more to if its already dead.