Heavy Weapons to Squad Size - Opinions?

[Blackjack13]

Right I've just got back into wargaming (see my introdustion page thread) and am needing to create a new army having sold all my old ones off.

Now my favourite force has always been space marines and I still had the codex so figured that they were the perfect choice to get back into gaming with - so with that in mind I wrote out a list and it came out perfect, it was (pretty) balanced, non-beardy, fluff accurate and had everything I wanted in it in the quantities I wanted - as I said perfect.

Then speaking to my mate who had continued to game (and had purchased my DA's off me) he told me about the changes they had made to the DA and BA - for the most part I was alright with it and then he came to the tactical squads. The new rule of not allowing heavy weapons in squads of less than 10 men (we all know its coming to the new maines in 5th, it came to the BA and to Chaos) has completely prevented me doing my dream list as it was based around 5 man squads w/ Heavy Bolters & Plasma Guns in Razorbacks (allowing each squad to be able to cope with all situations), which can no longer be done so I am kind of annoyed at this.

I was just wondering therefore what peoples opinions are on the heavy weapon/squad size rule and whether I am just beinga whiny b**** about the whole thing or if other people feel the same way. As I said I haven't played with this rule so I can't truely say if it does have any affect on peoples armies (though it appears that they will make, marines especially due to their lack of unique units, rather bland as if some one wants to take heavy weapons to make it tactically worth while they will also be doing the 5 man 'combat-squad' split with that half inc. special weapon in a transport - the same as every other marine army that wants to take heavy weapons).

Fluff wise it doesn't work for either - yes chapters are comprised of numerous 10 man tactical squads, each with 1 sgt., 1 specialist and 1 heavy but why owuld a general always field an entire tactical squad? And if he chose to only field half a squad why wouldn't he want to optimise their effectiveness by giving them optimum fire power? (It makes even less sense for Chaos who don't have any form of structure to their armies like teh marines do with the Index Astartes (that thing the smurf primarch implemented)) Also where do the other 4 men go when they utalise the razorback transport when not in battle?

I can see the the advantages of combat squads and how it stops gamers having an unbalanced force (but surely that is the gamer's/general's choice?) , I just don't like the fact that I'm forced to have a generic army in order to field some of what I want.

(Sorry, this is pretty much just a winge because I can't do my dream force)

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by Blackjack13

I can see the the advantages of combat squads and how it stops gamers having an unbalanced force (but surely that is the gamer's/general's choice?) , I just don't like the fact that I'm forced to have a generic army in order to field some of what I want.

As a note... while in pickup games i have no problem with cheesy lists... I can avoid lists/players I don't like. But the big problem is tourneys... where mathhammer and stupid cheese lists smash the much more balanced lists... and there is no way you can avoid fighting a list that is just plain unfair!

As for the rest of your post... all I can say is what to do... I don't like Combat Squads myself (they made me make the final step to chaos!) but people who want to play Space Marines will have to deal with.

And, ya... combat squads do have their uses... but I really liked my Six and 8 man squads...

[Sir_Servo]

MoW hit the nail on the head. There was a time when every tournament saw Blood Angles brining 6 tac squads of 5 men each with Las-cannons on all the Razerbacks and in each squad. On top of that each squad had a vet. serg. then they would field a few regular predators, not the Baal varient, and for an hq a chaplain or two. For the most part they would just zoom around and shoot the heck out of every one! Thats right Blood Angels were avoiding close combat.

Even the Chaplain with a huge death company wouldn't actively engage the enemy they were kept at the rear and used only if the enemy some how made it thourgh the withering hail of fire.

I think what would have been a good fix is to offer a Trait in the divergence system that would have allowed a little more access to Heavey weapons. I havn't read much up on the Space Marine Redux that is coming out in 5th ed, but perhaps they will fix it then.

My two cents,
Servo

[Brother Warchild]

I dont know why they insist on taking away the options?

[Sir_Servo]

I got it! what if they gave you the choice of either a heavy weapon or a razorback (something like the Heavey weapon operator has to stay in the vehicle to operate it's weapons systems. That way you could take a Heavy Weapon and if you want mobility you just take a rhino instead.

I don't know the idea just poped into my head right this second, so it might not be nearly as cool once I sit back and think about it, but what do you guys think.

Servo

[bezerker]

naa i dont mind the new change because in effect you could have had a 5 man sqaud with 3 heavies, which if u bulk together is a 10 man sqaUD WITH 6 heavies which is absolutley ridiculous! but if your playing a quick skirmish game its not too bad

and remember, if you want anyingthing pm me, ill see what i can do

[Blackjack13]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate hearing others views on the matter.

MoW - Yeah, I too hated getting raped by beardy armies (shame it happened so often...) especially at tournies, liked the ability to have variety in my army selection and have pretty much decided to start Chaos Marines based on it!

Brother Warchild - Because it's GW and anything they can do that will potentially piss off and annoy their customers will be done for the hell of it (prices, vanilla-ising, making armies/units redundant, stopping ordering bits...)

[Ides]

I think they're trying to make a case for Devastators and Havocs. If you need to have a large squad to make use of the heaviest weapons it forces you to rethink your strategy a bit. The options are still there but you need to try a bit harder, that's all.

If its any consolation they might give the option of a five man squad with heavy weapon to the Vets, similar to the options Chosen have in the current Chaos 'dex.

[experiment 626]

just wait untill 5th hits the shelves... the combat squads rule will really beef up the marines as now only Troops selections count as scoring units. being able to split your squads and in essence have '2 squad for the price of 1 FOC slot' will make marines a real pain to try and push off of objectives! (as they'll more Troops units in most cases.)
the thing about the heavy weapon was again to simply knock abusive powergaming on the head... it also makes the devastator/havoc squad infinately more usefull as now you really will want to take one! (and of corse, with the combat squads rule, the devs are again, even nastier as you don't have to limit yourself to only 1 type of weapon!!!)

and the worst BA army i've yet seen; (before their new 'dex!)
HQ: chappy w/jump pack
HQ: termie librarian w/4-man termie com squad w/2x ass-can
Elites: 2x 5-man termie squad w/2x ass-can
Troops: 6x 5-man scout squad w/vet sergeant
Fast: 3x squads of 2 tornados w/ass-can
Heavy: 3x baal pred - no sponsons
yep, massive death co. and no less than 15 ass-cans!!!

cheers!

[bezerker]

yea totally!

[Blackjack13]

Thanks for the feedback, it's good to hear others views on the matter.

As I said I can see the purpose of combat squads (this isn't a rant against them by any means) and that they are incredibly good - I recently 5th'ed (combination of educated guessing/predictions) my Marine list to see what it would look like and it is alot better from a gaming point of view to the current 'dream' list, but alot more generic. I just, and still don't, see why it was necissary to implement the rule for heavy weapons/squad size (then again I never really faced 'cheese' lists that exploited it to the extent of those yu guys describe) and even from a fluff approach it doesn't work. I don't know, I'll wait 'till 5th and decide what to do then (as my 5th list is so similar to the 'dream' list marines may be back on the cards for my return army)