My own DIY chapter

My own divirgent chapter, yet to be named. I would love suggestions, but my favorite leading name is the Black Saints. Posted in the other forum is the bit of fluff I have written for them so far, involving primarily the Chapters sentencing to penitent crusade.

I've thought a lot about colors, but being as they are primarily a troop heavy, infiltration/assault army,I thought something stealth like would be fitting. i had thougt a flat, almost matte black would be nice with some darker grey distressing since these guys are on Crusade. For trim, I'm drawing a blank, but may go with a glossier black or something. Any suggestions there? Not very good at painting or colors!

2K List(1936, need help on the last bits):

Significant Divergence:
See but Don't be Seen
Take the Fight to Them
Eye to Eye
Death Before Dishonour

Master: 186 Points
Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Combat Shield, Jump Pack, Terminator Honours, Adamantine Mantle

Terminator Assault Squad: 293 Points


Sergeant: Chainfist, Furious Charge, Storm Bolter
Terminator: Furious Charge, Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Terminator: Furious Charge, Lightning Claws
Terminator: Furious Charge, Lightning Claws
Terminator: Furious Charge, Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield
Terminator: Furious Charge, Lightning Claws

Veteran Squad: 203 Points

Sergeant: Lightning Claws,Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Terminator Honours


Scout Squad: 90 Points

Sergeant: Close Combat Weapon, Bolter
Space Marine Scout: Sniper Rifle
Space Marine Scout: Missile Launcher
Space Marine Scout: Sniper Rifle
Space Marine Scout: Sniper Rifle

Tactical Squad: 133 Points (3x)

Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Infiltrate, Power Weapon, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate

Tactical Squad: 138 Points (2x)

Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Infiltrate, Power Fist, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate
Space Marine: Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon, Infiltrate

Assault Squad: 163 Points (x3)

Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Power Weapon, Frag Grenades, Terminator Honours
Space Marine: Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine: Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine: Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine: Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol, Close Combat Weapon
Space Marine: Frag Grenades, Jump Pack, Flamer



Any ideas? I need long range support, but can't decide what...

[r4wr89]

for long range support, i would suggest infiltrating devs..they don't quite fit your fluff, i don't think, but they'll do the trick :]

i like this list though, reminds me of mine :] haha so many infiltrating troops! that's what i was aiming for, and from the looks of it, that was your goal as well.

just wondering though, why does your scout sergeant have a CCW and a bolter? you have the points, i would suggest another sniper rifle, but that's just me :]

hmm..not too much anti tank, a problem i have with my list as well, but you have a few powerfists so i guess you'll be okay for now.

if you have like 67 points left...let's see...well you can't do much with that, unfortunately..a land speeder with HB, but it doesn't quite fit your fluff..lol maybe throw in an elite inquisitor w/ psycannon as an independent character just for laughs haha..

just a few thoughts :]

good luck with this! i really like it because i love infiltrating, and i love mass infantry :]
-ant

ps: as for the name, i think black saints sounds amazing..you have a first founding chapter yet?
lol if it's raven guard our chapters could easily be from the same founding, lol like brother chapters or something :] haha

I probbaly won't choose a founding Chapter, although those who know my Loyalist Interests can see what two chapters I drew from. I had tried the infilitrating devs, but I would rather have the extra assault bodies rather than that.

If I added an Inquisitor, which would fit the fluff nicely, this build has been chose:

Ordo Malleus Inquisitor (fluff that comes in later on as to why this Ordo): 62 pts. Psycannon, CCW, Power Armor, Targeter

If devs, i would have to take down the body count on assault squads... But here is what I think would do nicely there:


6 devs. Infilitrating, Sergeant with power weapon, bolt pistol, terminator honors. 4 devs with bolter and CCW. 1 dev with multi-melta, 1 dev with missle launcher. About 155 pts for 5 devs.

Another option is of course, to remove the 6 man squad down to a 5 man(for tacticals), which would give me enough to pu tin devs and perhaps something else heavy. With that in mind, following options could be put in, with some to spare (power fists and melta guns come to mind):

Aforseaid devs and inquisitor (I hate land speeders with a passion, so none will be included in this list).

Predator Annihilator: 153 pts., twin linked las turret, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armor, hunter-killer missle, smoke launchers.

Predator Destructor: 133 pts. Autocannon turret, heavy bolter sponsons, extra armour, hunter-killer missle, smoke launchers.

Vindicator: 148 pts. Demolisher Cannon, storm bolter, extra armour, hunter-killer missle, smoke launchers.

Dreadnought: 153 pts. Missile launcher, assault cannon, extra armor, smoke launchers, drop pod.

For fluff sake, a look at the Inquisitor if given some points-flex:

Inquisitor Lord: 213 pts. (May leave him for a larger force build if I expand, but he fits my fluf so nicely..) Psycannon, Artificer armour, refractor field, scared incense, teleport homer, holocaust, fore weapon, retinue of 1 sage and two acolytes with bolt pistol CCW

There is also a terminator squad of 5 with a lone assault cannon, but that is pushing my fluff more than I would wish. I have never been much for any kind of real heavy support.. So, what do you think would work best there, in what situatin? I usually have several different builds for my armies, with the main one being a general whoop ass, and other being infantry heavy, armor heavy, ____ heavy combat builds. Thanks for the comments so far. Ikarus knows, these boys have been a labor of a few months for me, and will be giving me me modeling fix until the new BA codex in a year + or so.

[experiment 626]

well, i think you should honestly drop couple squads in order to bulk out the size of your squads! loyalist marines aren't that hot overall in assault and so they really need to rely on numbers! (unlike chaos marines who can take very killy camps and/or gifts like chain axes!)

also, those vets need some power toys! i'd give the vet sergeant the power fist and give a basic squadie the claws simply as it's cheaper that way!
also, i find termie honours for the squad to be a waste as more bodies is generally much better!

also, get some special weapons into those tacticle squads and assault squads!
meltaguns in the tac squad can help deal with enemy armour and/or high armour save troops... plus your infiltrate will mean getting the melta's into short range won't be nearly as difficult!
for the assault squads, i suggest flamers... most people take plasma for the meq value... overall, flamers are much better because they simply cause lots of hits!!! (and denying cover saves can really help enemies in cover!)

as for taking an inquisitor. keep him shooty! honestly, a cannoness is much scarier in an assault than any inquisitor...
holocaust is always worth it's pts simply because that pie-plate can wipe out entire squads if your opponent isn't paying close attention!

cheers!

Duly noted, 626! As you can see, I am rather used to the tasty-ness Chaos gives. Currently not on a comp that gives mye access to the imperial builder, but sometime tomorrow I will toy around with the squad. Most of what you said had occured to me, actually. Thanks.

[r4wr89]

good to hear you got some good advice :] i'll come back and have a peek at your second list, maybe drop a suggestion or two :]

-ant

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

Duly noted, 626! As you can see, I am rather used to the tasty-ness Chaos gives. Currently not on a comp that gives mye access to the imperial builder, but sometime tomorrow I will toy around with the squad. Most of what you said had occured to me, actually. Thanks.

*blushes*

i'm quite good with list building as my dice rolls are beyond abyssmally hopeless! (i've won a few murphy's luck awards at various rtt's!)

don't worry, i'll drop back in once you've got your new list up!

cheers!

Black Saints - 2K Revised (1953 pts.)

Master- 206 Pts:
Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer, Artificier Armour, Combat Shield, Jump Pack, Terminator Honours, Adamantine Mantle. 206 Pts.

Veteran Squad: 168 pts.
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Power Fist, Terminator Honours
Space Marine(4X): Bolt Pistol CCW
Space Marine: Lightning Claws

Terminator Assault Squad: 240 Pts.
Sergeant: Storm shield, Thunder Hammer
Termintor(3x): Lightning Claws
Terminator(2x): Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield

Tactical Squads(2x): 220 pts.
Sergeant: Bolt pistol, Power Fist, Terminator Honors, Infiltrate
Space Marine(8x): Bolt Pistol, CCW, Infiltrate
Space Maine: Meltagun, Infilitrate

Scouts Squad: 108 pts.
Sergeant: Sniper rifle
Scout(4x): Sniper rifle
Scout: Heavy Bolter

Assault Squad(3x): 265(267) pts.
Sergeant: Bolt Pistol, Jump Pack, Power Weapon, Frag Greandes, Melta Bombs, Teleport homer (only in one squad w/ 267 pts.)
Space Marine(7x): Frag Greandes, Jump Pack, Bolt Pistol & CCW
Space Marine(2x): Flamer, Frag Grenades, Jump Pack



There it is folks.. Still about 47 pts. off the mark of 2K. Which leads to the question.. For most those I game against, the average minimal mark is 2K, so should I go ahead and build this army for the more common amount of 2.5K, or the 3K. Most of these marines I will be getting in trade, so the money isn't too much a worry.

Also.. I had thought of downgrading my Master from a Thunder Hammer to a power weapon, since i've enough fun toys of that variety, and that would free points, but however.. the stun and power fist affect is beastly in CC (tried it out today proxying Dark Angel models, nailed an Emperors Children daemon prince with this guy). And.. Should I use the extra points to up my vet. squad some men, or the scouts? I've got, as it is... 68 bodies on the field, including termies and scouts, 69 if you count my Master. Thats a pretty heavy infantry force. Also, still back to the main concern: Do I have enough anti-tank to keep myself safe? Most armies I play are tank or heavy support fiends (Night Lord army that has somehow pulled off being shooty, and an Eldar Army. Soon to be playing Guard, Blood Angels, and Dark Angels). So this is a concern, but I think the power fists, meltas, abundance of thunder hammers, and melta bombs would be well enough to take care of this. Thanks for the hel pguys!

Note: After tinkering, I can comfortably expand the vets. to a 9 man squad, coming in at 1989 (just short of the mark for a tenth!). However, if I remove the melta bombs - teleport homer combo (not really nessecary) from the 267 pts. assault squad, I can fit in a ten man vet. squad, and still afford krak grenades for the seargent of th eassault squad, and bring my marine total to... 73 including scouts, termies, and master! Thats a whopping infantry force!

[experiment 626]

well, i'd honestly lose the artificer armour on the master for two reasons;
a) he'll be hiding in a squad where the majority armour save will be 3+.
b) most things you'll want him fighting will simply ignore that 2+ save anyways!
just trust to your combat shield to come through in assaults, and be sure to laugh when he shrugs off any lascannons to the face!

i heartily agree with needing to up the numbers on the vet squad! assaulty squads need numbers to remain effective...
if you can, you might want to also squeeze in that power weapon you can still take too!

as for the scouts, think about going for a rocket launcher instead of the heavy b... snipers do get 2D6 penetration and can come through with a lucky glancing/penetrating hit at times! (my ratlings once knocked out the assault cannon on a dread! )
also, as snipers are ment for going after big 'uber death gribblies, the krak rocket option simply compliments better than the lower strength of the bolter...

30 assault marines is indeed scary! though again i'd simply go for the power fist mainly because it's a no-brainer... (and i hate it when i get stuck fighting something i can't hurt!)
though, the power toys could work seeing as your master is there to take care of the monsters... maybe go for just 1 power fist and leave the other 2 as power toys???

overall, 70 or so marines is a scary thought, especially as all of yours either have jump packs or infiltrate!
you're right in thinking that you have lots of anti-tank - it's simply all very short ranged! eldar will give you headachs though because of all the skimmers, and they're combat specialists kick the tar out of marines!
to give you a bit more longer ranged anti-tank, you might want some regular tactical termies w/assault cannons in place of the assault ones... i know people hate assault cannons because they're bloody amazing, but 2 is in no way overkill!!!

hope this helps,
cheers!

Actually, I had been thinking of doing so! I love the assault cannon, but in order to afford it, I had to drop one termie, which was not a problem at all. However, I had to make a hard choice. I ended up not giving the Vets. another power weapon, and instead added a power fist to my assault squad, dropping the melta bombs from it since they really wouldn't be needed. I also, in order to keep the other two squads tooled to deal with tanks if need be, dropped a flamer from the squad. So I ended up with 1999 pts., 5 termies w/ two assault cannons, scouts with a missle launcher (I was thinking rate of fire, but the high end power of a missle launcher is better). A ten man vet. squad, and an assault squad with one less flamer but an added power fist. The master also has lost his shiny artificier armor. I'll have a chance to test this build soon, so i'll let you know whats goin on.

[Dan296]

i dont think that you have enough anti-tank. people are generally smart anoug hto move tanks every turn, so you hit on 6's. also, krak grenades wont help you against any imperial guard tanks unless you go behind them and get lucky.
definatly test it though before making lots of changes. if you expanded to 2500 i would get a predetor annighilator and a dread w/ lascannon & missle launcher

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Dan296

i dont think that you have enough anti-tank. people are generally smart anoug hto move tanks every turn, so you hit on 6's. also, krak grenades wont help you against any imperial guard tanks unless you go behind them and get lucky.
definatly test it though before making lots of changes. if you expanded to 2500 i would get a predetor annighilator and a dread w/ lascannon & missle launcher

regular tanks moving upto 6" need 4's to-hit... tanks moving over 6" and any skimmers (inlcuding the oh-so-ponderous monolith ironically!) require 6's to-hit in assaults...

eldar and tau vehicles will be a big problem! (you'll need to rely on meltaguns and rending)
other vehicles should be taken care of with 4 power fist attacks!

walkers like dreads get mauled by power fists simply because they don't have enough attacks to get through all those ablative wounds!

cheers!

Originally Posted by Dan296

i dont think that you have enough anti-tank. people are generally smart anoug hto move tanks every turn, so you hit on 6's. also, krak grenades wont help you against any imperial guard tanks unless you go behind them and get lucky.
definatly test it though before making lots of changes. if you expanded to 2500 i would get a predetor annighilator and a dread w/ lascannon & missle launcher

I appreciate the advice, but this list is not totally about winning. I want it to be survivable. It is more a fluff army for a Chapter i'm doing some writing around. As such, this Chapter in my fluff abhors the use of tanks, dreads, etc.. Very martial oriented, relying on their prowess and stealth rather than their guns. I just really wanted to build a near all infantry force for SM, and when I got the idea to write this story i'm on, the two just clicked. Plus, I just hate tanks and vehicles in general (Dreads are nice, the fluffhead in me loves 'em). Too easy to blow all to ****. In my 2.5K I will be adding some infilitrating devs, and something else along those lines, perhaps a second termie squad, or a second HQ tooled for tank hunting. Vehicles will be avoided in this list like the plague.

I thought I had removed the krak in the newer list..? If not, just a type and they are gone now. Had extra pts., and figured something was better than nothing for 'em, but they all have melta bombs now. Plus, any squads I would have them on would have been assaults, so getting to the ass end of them isn't a problem. This list has now been battle tested against a Guard army, (proxied using my ever present emperors children, since it is standard practice for us to test a quirky list out on each other before investing).

While I lost the game, it was by but a hairsbreadth, and even the gentleman I was facing admitted I had him sweating bullets up until the last marine went.In a re-match, I actually won, by a lucky few meltagun hits and a sizable chunk of the poor mans tanks (basilisk, lem russ, and a l.r.) falling to my Master The anti tank was not a problem, although this list required me knowing what squads were where and what tank was where at all times. It functions well, but is not the typical marine 'put on the table and charge/blast nearest unit'. It takes some finesse, some tactics, and a little bit of feigned stupidity (ahhhh.. pooor, poor little guardsmen!) to really make it shine.

The only real need I see with this core list is more anti-tank, and in all honesty it handles itself quite well now, just a little more hands-on than most lists. Even though I have numbers, I need to conserve dearly. Besides, at 3K this list looks like it will field such an amount of Marines that I will be more than covered.


Side Note: It is typical for people in my area to have three lists: 2, 2.5, and 3K. This is so everyone can face on another, as most have tinkered to have 3K on their armies, but the least amount generally built is 2K. These three values are informal, but give everyone a big enough army to have fun with. I had had some questions about that off forum, thought I'd answer.

[experiment 626]

great to hear the army seems to work for you! in all honesty, it's taken me the better part of two years to mold my drop troops into the feared army they now are! (but then i don't play much when the hockey season goes from oct-april!)

be sure to let us know how you fare against eldar and tau though! i see them with all their skimmers being the ban of your army...

i still shudder at the thought though of 30 assault marines! please, won't you think of the poor, defenseless guard hoard?!!

good luck with the army!
cheers!

[infiniti]

your army is nice i follow the same sort of thing i hate guard and marine verhicals so i go with lots of troops but i only have one thing i don't like about your list and that is the terminators as i would rather have devs or tactical marineseven a second vet squad but not termies but hey it is your list it is great good luck

[Dan296]

sry didn know it was a fluff army not a normal play-to-win army.
if its good anti-tank then theres nothing wrong with it =]
ive never seen an all infantry space marine force before. must be interesting.

stitch....you canadians and your hockey....silly.

---Update---


2.5K saw the addition of 10 infilitrating devs, sarge with power fist bolt pistol, term honors. Three missle launchers. Also another tactical squad, as well as some melta bombs dispersed on the new squad, mainly just to bolster anti-tank. 3K saw the addition of a dread with asault cannon and missle laucnher arms, extra armor and smoke launcher. It also saw the addition of another tactical squad with melta-bombs, as well as the fluff unit I had always been wanting: 153 points for an Inquisitor Lord with power weapon, psycannon, refractor field, holocaust, two sages and an acolyte. I think this list is going to be fun!



As for tau, it wasn't too bad... Took some bad hits from the tanks at first though. The numbers of my marines were enough that i hit his armor after his troops, and actually had about 53 or so of the original 70 +. I managed to basically chew the manpower of his army (stealthsuits were tricky) up into bits and just took two turns to chase his tanks down and swarm them. 5 turns over all, before he conceeded with an Ethereal and a hammerhead (I think... some nasty tankses with a rail gun).

The skimmers are diffficult, but this army has one advantage: It is hard to hit, but there is enough in sheer numbers to balance this out. I face a new Eldar army tomorrow, and will be using the expanded 3K list. Update is below as follows. The all infantry approach actually seem to have one more factor: Shock. Most people spend a whole turn just going: 'Awww.. what the *#$?'. As most can see, spending a turn in panic with this army just hurts, badly. I also had my first really humiliating defeat today, but the rolls were just not in my favor. Faced a World Eaters army much the same as mine, except HEAVY on bikers and flying possessed, with some nasty tac squads. I say humilating because I usually am tactically minded enough to stomp the Khorne army I faced, but with this army he had a new tactic (broke force into four parts.. One behind to hold my flank there, largest up the middle, bikes to the center). It was bloody, but I went down hard. HE survived with three squads though they were damaged.

Thanks guys, and updates on the Eldar battle will be forthcoming!

P.S. - Infiniti.. I am a major fluffie.. Having an SM army without terminators or a dread just dosen't feel right. I usually am known for creating HUGE ridiculous poin sinking command squads, just ebcause I try to make the members of it like an actual chapter command and not gameplay safe. This list thoguh, I refused to allo wmyself one.

[r4wr89]

hey i just have a quick question...you field 70 marines in how many points? 2k ?

YEs siree bob. It's 72 or 73. Not sure which.

[experiment 626]

i'd likely drop the vet upgrade for the devies... devies in assault?! something's gone very wrong there!
granted with infiltration it can happen quite easily, but still i'd maybe try keeping some scouts or another tactical squad nearby in support...

glad to hear the battle against the tau went so well! (i always enjoy a good fish-fry!)

cheers!

the devs will have a tac squad dedicated to being their assault vanguard while they lay down fire. That tactic so far seem to work. I may take the infilitrate off though. That would leave some points free. I'll have to tinker.

[r4wr89]

take the infiltrate off of the devs? hmm...well maybe it would therefore be logical to take a tactical squad without infiltration, so the devs can keep up? maybe? hmm.. :]
just a thought. i like the idea of infiltrating heavy weapons but [and i'm sure you've thought of this too] they might just be too exposed when infiltrating.. :[

tell us what you decide!
-ant

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

the devs will have a tac squad dedicated to being their assault vanguard while they lay down fire. That tactic so far seem to work. I may take the infilitrate off though. That would leave some points free. I'll have to tinker.

no way! leave infiltrate on the devs! it at least allows you to set them *after* your opponent has put out all of their shiny tanks/death gribblies!

might be frowned upon by some, but hell it's a viable tactic using inflitration like that to simply get the drop on the big things...

cheers!

Infiltrate was kept on the devs... Here is a rough paint estimate, from the GW painter. Also shows my (tenative) Chapter icon and battlecry. If anyone who is better with creating images and such is willing to try, i'd love a slightly better one! (Alas paint can only do so much!)