how many imperial guard in the whole army

[Warmaster Romulas]

and lucky the navy wouldnt get far without their "near human" navigators

[Wakim]

Funny, he called them *near human* i would call them *not so human* or *herbertine babies*

[Ichor]

Originally Posted by Warmaster Romulas

i think you guys are thinking one battle
2 armies of this magnitude would have a campaign that would span years and planets
this would give the marines the advantage plain and simple

How would the marines gain an advantage? In fact, I think the longer a battle lasts, the more of an advantage the IG has as the Space marines resources drop down because of the sheer battle of attrition they have to win.
Also, a Space Marine may be worth ten Guardsmen, but 1,000,000,000,000 Imperial Guardsmen > 1,000,000 Space Marines.

[all-lucky7777]

Originally Posted by Wakim

Funny, he called them *near human* i would call them *not so human* or *herbertine babies*

I'm afraid I'm not cultured enough to get that one... Maybe as in Frank Herbert? What does Dune Have to do with this?

As far as 'near human' astropaths, aren't they just psykers? Psyker ability is present within the entire human race, not just astropaths. Or it could be present in anyone, I should say.

Oh and as far as damge is concerned, the imperium cant afford to just blow up every planet with space marines on them, but the marines can wipe out whole regiments that way. Of course the same goes for Baal Secundus or Fenris.

[Wakim]

Navigators (both Dune and 40k) are heavily mutated human psykers

Although Dune lacks the empyrian, they both do the same thing, navigate huge ships over huge distances with the power of thei hugely modified minds

PS A 40k navigator isn`t just a human, it can`t reproduce with another human being It`s heavily modified

At least last time i checked

[all-lucky7777]

Well hey, I got Dune right. I was thinking too much Fremen. I was also thinking Marines when you said 'herbertine babies' not Navigators. So I guess they are like mules then?

So maybe the Navis would rebel, but they would rebel to mechanicus, I wuold think. Certainly not the marines (they have them too), so what then? It would be a massive battle, but everything would be spread out amongst the thousands of systems in little chunks. Everyone would lose. Grey Knights especially.

[Wakim]

Then some Deus Ex Machina would happen, maybe the revival of the Emperor

He`d just stomp everyone into his place and conquer another quarter of the galaxy

[all-lucky7777]

And Grey Kinghts are space marines too, and the Sisters are human with cool equipment. Why are they chucked out the window? I could understand the sisters if you go by the whole 'Imperial Guard vs Space Marines' purist theory (its all semantics at that point) but GK's are actual space marines. The Black templars are just as different as the Grey Knights, so why exclude them?

[Wakim]

Because... well, because you`re still OFF TOPIC.

Seriously, you`re wrong with arguing like that.

Make another topic called HUMANS vs MUTANTS or The Imperium Divided and your arguements would make a lot more sense.

The OP just wanted a fight between the SM and IG, a fight which the SM would win or else it would end up in a draw

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by Wakim

Because... well, because you`re still OFF TOPIC.

Seriously, you`re wrong with arguing like that.

Make another topic called HUMANS vs MUTANTS or The Imperium Divided and your arguements would make a lot more sense.

The OP just wanted a fight between the SM and IG, a fight which the SM would win or else it would end up in a draw

Amen
preach it brother

[all-lucky7777]

Alright, alright I concede. Its still all just semantics.

So I'm out of ideas. How about this:

A baneblade isn't actually as impenetrable as a landraider (better rear armor) but It has structure points and equivelent armor and much, much bigger guns. If we are involving the Navy then a couple of Thunderbolts would have a easy time with a thunderhawk, simply becuase its slower and more importantly, only has ground firing weapons except for a whole bunch of heavy bolters in non-AA mounts and a few lascannons. However, a thunderhawk I think would do pretty well against a Baneblade becuase the BB would be rolling sixes to hit a thunderhawk. On the other hand, the baneblade has four guns it can hurt the thunderhawk with but the thunder hawk only has about three (did it have any lascannons? I don't remember), one of which is the turbolaser/normal battlecannon on the top of the fuselage, depending on whether were talking Forgeworld or old school.

Again, You can only fit so many men on a planet and the marines are likely to be churning out about as many men as the guard are, theres no limiting the speed at which they deploy. The guard has mass dropships, so they would be coming on in a large, slow unwieldy force while the space marine would drive their rhinos and thunderhawks and drop in to the middle of Guard armies, likely where the guard are actually deploying. With the number of powerarmored marines capable of being in the thick of it all the marines would probably win an infantry war. But I think they would have a hard time against Guard armor. A battle cannon isn't called a marine flyswatter for nothing. And Baneblades kill terminators. There are many times more baneblades than there are individual suits of termie armor.

As far as equipment goes, I think we have a good fight on our hands. But other than that, I have no idea. Perhaps I wasn't so out of ideas.

And this would be a good time to go to another forum where I don't annoy everybody.

[Astrotrain]

Originally Posted by Baron Spikey

@Astrotrain- what? we're saying the IG would have no way to cross Space because they couldn't without the Imperial Navy's aid and since this scenario involves the Guard versus the Space Marines they would not have that aid.

If the topic was Guard Vs IG then of course you'd have to let the guard get there to engage them.You might as well say the guard wouldn't have any weapons to fight with because the Admech makes them while the space marines make/own all their stuff.

Thats like saying Bob would lose to Jack in a fight because Jack owns a car and can go to Bob's house and beat him in his sleep while Bob can't use the subway to get to Jack because Bob does not own the subway.
Sorry for the awkward and weird example guys.

On another thought this argument is like the "can orks take over the universe" thread.

[Astrotrain]

On another note the guard could just hire rouge traders and civilian ships to shuttle their forces around in this hypothetical war.

[TheKiller333]

Originally Posted by Wakim

Then some Deus Ex Machina would happen, maybe the revival of the Emperor

He`d just stomp everyone into his place and conquer another quarter of the galaxy

Well, only if the Guard killed the High Lords, 'cause they'd not allow it :O

Originally Posted by all-lucky7777

You can only fit so many men on a planet and the marines are likely to be churning out about as many men as the guard are, theres no limiting the speed at which they deploy.

I disagree with this. The Marines take ages in training + Genetic Modification, it'd take a long time for the Marines to rebuild a fully operational army.. Meh.

[Wakim]

Dude, it`s called Deus Ex Machina for a reason.

For all we know the ELDAR could *sneakishly* revive him to keep the human species from going back to the midle ages for the n`th time so they still have someone to manipulate into fighting their wars until the Tau grow big enough :P

[TheKiller333]

Hehe, Sncheaky Sncheaky.

[all-lucky7777]

And you were just scolding me for including other armies.

Seriously, though, I can agree with what killer333 said, but I was talking about an initial downpour of infantry. The Guard and the marines would be about equal in number when no one has an advantage over the other with how quickly they can land troops. Recruitment can wait, the marines would have their boys on the ground then and there. The guard better stick to their tanks, and spaceships. Its what they're good at anyway. Are we still excluding the Navy?

And I almost forgot. Someone said the only vehicle the guard should be jealous of is the Land Speeder. I think a Dreadnought with a Drop Pod (or without one) is certainly something to be envious about.

Someone fill me in on what Deus ex Machina is? I've heard that term before. I can admit- I'm still learning.

[Warmaster Romulas]

there is no way there is more baneblades than terminator armour
the first company of every chapter is the veteran company with 50-100 suit of terminator armour
hell the space wolves alone have roughly 240 suits (12 companies with 20 per) at their disposal alone
the terminator armour is more resilent in fluff terms
and the thunderhawk GUNSHIP is a more than capable space fighter one of the best in the imperium matter of fact

[Wakim]

Originally Posted by all-lucky7777

And you were just scolding me for including other armies.

Seriously, though, I can agree with what killer333 said, but I was talking about an initial downpour of infantry. The Guard and the marines would be about equal in number when no one has an advantage over the other with how quickly they can land troops. Recruitment can wait, the marines would have their boys on the ground then and there. The guard better stick to their tanks, and spaceships. Its what they're good at anyway. Are we still excluding the Navy?

And I almost forgot. Someone said the only vehicle the guard should be jealous of is the Land Speeder. I think a Dreadnought with a Drop Pod (or without one) is certainly something to be envious about.

Someone fill me in on what Deus ex Machina is? I've heard that term before. I can admit- I'm still learning.

Deus Ex Machina is a greek name for something that`s been in literature since... literature.

It`s the name for when something completly unrelated but somewhat acceptable happens to change the course of the story, usually in a good way, saving the day, usually the hero or the good guys or something like that.

Basicly, divine intervention.

Random greek hero #4 in deadly danger with no way of salvation? Random greek deity/mystical creatures comes and saves him


I just mentioned the Eldar to give Killer an example of the most reasonable DEM posible

And you`re still missing the point.

I didn`t mention the eldar as auxiliaries for anyone in the war. Just as a way to keep humanity from ending, by reviving the Emperor. But there are a zillion ways for the Emperor to revive


Please read more carefully next time, i`m pretty tidy with what i say :P

[Ichor]

Originally Posted by Warmaster Romulas

there is no way there is more baneblades than terminator armour
the first company of every chapter is the veteran company with 50-100 suit of terminator armour
hell the space wolves alone have roughly 240 suits (12 companies with 20 per) at their disposal alone
the terminator armour is more resilent in fluff terms
and the thunderhawk GUNSHIP is a more than capable space fighter one of the best in the imperium matter of fact

Yet baneblades will easily destroy Terminators. I don't care if a one of them got stomped on by a titan and lived. But to bear two heavy bolters, an autocannon, two lascannons, a demolisher cannon AND a baneblade cannon on them, that's definetly a kill. Where did you get the information that there are more suits of terminator armour than baneblades? You do realize that there are many, many, Super Heavy regiments right? Also if I was a Space Marine, I'd be envios of The Guard's tanks. Do Space Marines get Volcano Cannons? Plasma Blastaguns? Hellhamers?

[Warmaster Romulas]

a super heavy regiment is like 2-3 tanks not an impresive number
the marines go with speed and skill
to compare the 2 the guard are a sledge hammer the marines are a rapier
which would you want to wield in battle?

all those weapons dont do any good if the terminator is cutting throught the bulk head with a chainfist and killing the crew
the hell hamer vulcano cannons and plasma blastaguns
are good weapons but the people who man them are squishy and full of fear
while a marine is a fearless killing machine not worreid about a commissar or if the rations came off the truck or any of the trappings of a guardsman
they just want to kill the enemy of the emperor

[Ichor]

Ahem, there are twenty super heavies in a regiment. You underestimate the morale of Guardsmen. Death Korps, Cadia, Valhalla, and many others are full of courageos and quite fanatical Guardsmen.

[Warmaster Romulas]

ok so 20 but the entire regiment never gets tasked to the same theater
yea they are corageos but they still need food and fresh water
guardman just dont have the veratility of a marine
those are great regiments no doubt
but i jus think the size and scope of the galaxy would lend itself to the style of marine attacks
why do you think they bring in marines to "break open" front that have bogged from guard action
lets face it the guard was created to be garrisons for worlds the marines conquered