how many imperial guard in the whole army

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by Ichor

Cadia, Valhalla, Vostroya, Krieg, Armageddon, Cromaryn, Catachan, Mordia, ...
Need I keep listing?

where do you get this info?
Cadia has maybe a thousand of regiments of PDF and so do Mordia
they are not guard they protect the planet from things leaving the EOT

there is only 20-100 regimental foundings on a planet per generation thats every 30 years or so
some planets can give more than others
and that depends on the type of planet
they have had "emergency foundings" but they are very rare
imperial planets cant afford to sustain thousand of regiments leaving the planet all the time

[Ichor]

Actaully, I read in Eisenhorn Omnibus that there are regimental foundings each year.
Also, you'd probably figure out that after 10,000 years and there being countless warzones with the deployment of dozens of regiments that there is a lot of regiments that would have to number in the billions.

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by Ichor

Actaully, I read in Eisenhorn Omnibus that there are regimental foundings each year.
Also, you'd probably figure out that after 10,000 years and there being countless warzones with the deployment of dozens of regiments that there is a lot of regiments that would have to number in the billions.

Dude Dan Abnett although very talented takes way more creative liscence than he really should
his fluff is not canon

most of those old regiment resettle defeated worlds
and new regiments get the same name and number
you dont think that whatshisface Creed was with the original founding of the 8th cadian? he would be like 9000 yrs old

its ok i got a freind who thinks all the novel stuff is how it is but the authors dont write the game fluff
example
for 15 years Ferrus Manus just disappeard after the heresy
now some author has him being killed by some chaos flunkie during the heresy
its just not true
know what i mean?

[all-lucky7777]

Then what is canon? that could easily be a difference in opinion. You can't say that whatever you get your fluff from is any more accurate than Ichor's. Even so, Black library is supposed to be the one who makes the fluff, period, right? Who else writes the backstory in codexes or things like Index Astartes? Where/what is your 'source', Romulas?

I actually think that Romulas has the Regiment thing, Ichor. Yes Cadia or Mordia would have thousands of regiments, But those are major military worlds, designed for that, and renowned for having thousands of regiments. Therefore the vast majority of worlds would have 1 to i don't know, 100? That makes sense.

On the other hand, I don't think that cadia has 1000's of PDF regiments, the codex lists them as having regiments all over the galaxy fighting for no more reason than they were needed. Look in the codex on the page with all the at ease guardsmen painted different colors. And I think i read somewhere in my BFG book that battlefleet Cadia does the same thing, meaning Cadia is designed as a mobile army, to assist in wars along with the fleet. Assuming that I'm assuming right.

[Warmaster Romulas]

i dont use the novels
those guys arent even GW they are free lancers
i use codecies
index astartes
imperial armour
all the official game books going back
almost 20 yrs into the hobby
(im on my 16 yr this march)
you know "Chapter Approved"
that used to mean something
that meant it was official canon

[Astrotrain]

Baneblades can out match 10 terminators easily before they close in on them. Thunderhawks still get shot down easily by hydra flack tanks.Theres probably more storm troopers and vets then there are space marines.For every land raider theres about 30 Malcador tanks.Space marines may be able to stomp regular guard but elite guard outnumbers regular marines.And I once saw something where Cadia had 650 million guardsmen defending it during the 13th black crusade.

[Warmaster Romulas]

maybe 650 mil cadians defending cadia
not guardsman thats PDF
whatgood is a baneblades weapons when a terminator squad teleports right on it?
1 well placed terminator squad can take out a group of baneblades
and my entire arguement
supplies
supplies
supplies
and style of war

[all-lucky7777]

The Term Planetary Defense Force should mean diddly in this scenario. The PDF would cease to be PDF in a conflict at this magnitude. They would fight the Space Marines wherever they are. Its also unfair to say that all the guardsmen would just sit around doing nothing because thats what they were doing before everything got all psychotic. Just becuase they are PDF doesn't mean they should be wasted elements in this oddball campaign.

And you want to talk about supplies? Space marines have to recruit somewhere, so just hit Baal Secundus or Fenris or Macragge (tyrannic wars? is it still there?) with a well-placed Exterminatus and the whole chapter isn't replacing its casualties.

One more thing. Space Marines cant win in space. An Emporer Class battleship is a match for a battlebarge. And there are many many times more emporers or retributions than there are strike cruisers, let alone battlebarges. So the space marines would lose in space. YES, fishy, thats not the point. I get it. I just wanted it out there. Sorry.

[Baron Spikey]

Right.

@Ichor- NO regiment numbers in the billions or millions- the vast majority of regiments have a set number of men and don't have new recruits sent to them (with exception like the Cadian 8th being notable).

There aren't 'millions' of worlds there is a MILLION (hence the quote saying there is a Space Marine for every Imperial Planet). Each planet on average will NOT have thousands of regiments operating at one time, I cant think of a single one that operates as such. Though of all them Krieg would be the most likely (but I'd leave that analysis to Baron Von Lexus as he is the Krieg fluff monster).

Armageddon does in fact have thousands of regiments, on its surface and from different planets though.

Hell, Catachan's population probably couldn't even support 100 regiments at any one time, being a Death World means you never get a population in the Billions.

If you actually read about the Baneblade then you'll know only a very small number of Forge Worlds are allowed to produce the Official Baneblade (and each of those Baneblades is registered with Mars) but the popularity of the Tank is such that other Forge Worlds will make copies that dont adhere to the original STC designs (which they don't have access to anyway)

@all-lucky7777- Black Library do NOT write things like Index Astartes or the Codexes (Codexi?), they are mainly a subsidiary of Games Workshop that produces Novels.
How many Emperor class Battleships do you think there are? Considering each one would take decades to construct (if its even possible for the Adeptus Mechanicus to make them any more- will look into that)

Sorry for the rant (that's usually Killer's territory) but since its my first one in a long time I felt I deserved it.

[Ichor]

Originally Posted by Baron Spikey

Right.

@Ichor- NO regiment numbers in the billions or millions- the vast majority of regiments have a set number of men and don't have new recruits sent to them (with exception like the Cadian 8th being notable).

There aren't 'millions' of worlds there is a MILLION (hence the quote saying there is a Space Marine for every Imperial Planet). Each planet on average will NOT have thousands of regiments operating at one time, I cant think of a single one that operates as such. Though of all them Krieg would be the most likely (but I'd leave that analysis to Baron Von Lexus as he is the Krieg fluff monster).

Armageddon does in fact have thousands of regiments, on its surface and from different planets though.

Hell, Catachan's population probably couldn't even support 100 regiments at any one time, being a Death World means you never get a population in the Billions.

If you actually read about the Baneblade then you'll know only a very small number of Forge Worlds are allowed to produce the Official Baneblade (and each of those Baneblades is registered with Mars) but the popularity of the Tank is such that other Forge Worlds will make copies that dont adhere to the original STC designs (which they don't have access to anyway)

@all-lucky7777- Black Library do NOT write things like Index Astartes or the Codexes (Codexi?), they are mainly a subsidiary of Games Workshop that produces Novels.
How many Emperor class Battleships do you think there are? Considering each one would take decades to construct (if its even possible for the Adeptus Mechanicus to make them any more- will look into that)

Sorry for the rant (that's usually Killer's territory) but since its my first one in a long time I felt I deserved it.

I never said that a regiment numbers in the billions or millions. Pfft, most of black library is reliable. In fact, the stuff's put right in the codexes. Dan Abnett also has his stuff on the GW website, and I think it's fair to trust it as fluff. If not, what can we trust as fluff?

Although they make copies of it, it was never stated that there are COMPANIES of fake baneblades. You don't have definite numbers to draw on.

Though the Imperium may not number in the millions, it still has over a million worlds, most of which are Guard.

Anyways, the regimnets and worlds that have insufficient numbers are made up for the many hive and industrial worlds that have large populations. When I make my calulations, I take averages. Yes the Imperium really does have all of those men

Catachan regiments such as the 391st contradicts your statement about them not having lots of regiments. Before you start saying that many other are unactive/destroyed/ merged, keep in mind of the many other catachan regiments that were repoted in the Macharian Crusades and other campaingns. (about M41.399)

[Baron Spikey]

There aren't definite numbers to draw on for ANYTHING in the Warhammer 40,000 Universe!
Other than the basic concept of:
~1 million worlds
~ 1000 Adeptus Astartes Chapters

So don't say there aren't companies of 'fake' Baneblades (which I never really suggested if my assumption that a Company would be more than 2-3 tanks) when you have done nothing to support your own argument that Baneblades are in fact in any sort of appreciable number.

Black Library excerpts are included in Codexes because they're evocative and, if you want to be cynical, fills space that the game designers don't have to.

Unless otherwise stated the majority of Black Library novels must be used lightly as canon references, just because the novels are cool doesn't mean I trust them. For every Graham McNeill there's a C.S Goto.

What calculations? you've presented no evidence other than gross generalisations and inconsistent back ground knowledge.

EDIT: so more than 100 Catachan regiments took part in the Macharian Crusades? Not likely and considering that was 600 yrs prior to the current 40K timeline, not very helpful.
10,000 years! Most of the Regiments will have been destroyed or disbanded in that period, I'm surprised that the 391st is still around but like the 8th Cadian it will be one of those minority of Regiments that are reinforced rather than allowed to operate until numbers drop below a viable miltary capability. (Read about the Vostroyans, one of the few worlds whose regiments are ALL reinforced- Medusa IV handbook/Design Notes in WD)

[Ichor]

If you think a low regiment number is rare try the 2nd Desedniain, 35th Orcallion, 12th Tallarn, !7th Catachan, and 11th Kado, and 4th Brimlock Dragoons. Again, I didn't say over 100 Catachan regiments participated in the Macharian Cruades. However, there were also other regiments that participated in other campaigns.

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Ichor

Actually, I read somewhere that your standard world has several thousand regiments. Also, even if the Imperium doesn't have 3 million, they still have over 1 million. Since that most Imperial worlds are required to raise Imperial Guard regiments, at least 1m would have regiments.

As another note, Spave marines are ment for lightning fast raids that quickly neutralize the enemy. The Imperial Guard is ment for more direct, open warfare.

Ok... And you're saying that if an SM force drops in, kills the entirety of the Senior HQ staff, that you HONESTLY think the Imperial Guard could remain a cohesive fighting force? Pffffttt... I'll take my hip waders now.

Originally Posted by Ichor

If they never turned traitor, then we'd never had chpaters. then we'd have only 200,000 marines.

Ahan.... So you know for a fact that the figures we had would stay static, the Marines would never have recruited anymore, etc...? Did you time travel and liek chill with the Emperor for a few hours or something? 'Cuz if not, you have no basis for your claims of 200K marines only. If you get to apply logic, everyone else does. And often times ill applied logic bites you in the ass harder than anything else.

Originally Posted by word bearers 81007

guy's it's safe to say that the marines don't stand a chance. it takes 9 guardsmen in rapid fire range to statically gurantee a dead marine. therefore if the gaurd outnumber the marines 10 to 1, which they do by far. than the marines are toast. looking at it from a simple point of view.

We're speaking less in game terms here.. More in fluff... IF we're speakign game terms.. Well.. A regular Guardsman has no possible way to save against almost ANY weapon the SM carry... so those 9 Guard are dead before they fire. ^.^

Originally Posted by all-lucky7777

I christen this post 'my take on semantics.' You would have to divide it into 'Humans' and 'Near Humans'.

Imperial navy goes with guard, because they are both human, regardless of what equipment they are using.

Adeptus Mechanicus goes with 'near human', because they are now mechanical at least partially. the difference here between that and bionics is that the Mechanicus takes a religious significance to it. I don't think they would side with anything that wasn't willing to convert.

Space marine are near-human, obviously.

Where does the inquisition go? Do the SOB and GK's and Adeptus Arbites, etc. just sit there and watch?

I think the whole imperium would be torn apart. There would be no SM vs IG, it would be SM and IG that wished to fight for the SM versus SM that wished to fight for the IG and IG.

Just my 2 cents.

SM wouldn't betrary SM IMHO.. Not with all the insanely heavy psycho-indoctrination and such. If one SM chapter were attacked by the IG the others would hammer the rebels into a pulp quicker than you can say 'Lord Fulgrims Purple Polka Dotted Undershorts' three times fast.

Originally Posted by all-lucky7777

I'm afraid I'm not cultured enough to get that one... Maybe as in Frank Herbert? What does Dune Have to do with this?

As far as 'near human' astropaths, aren't they just psykers? Psyker ability is present within the entire human race, not just astropaths. Or it could be present in anyone, I should say.

Oh and as far as damge is concerned, the imperium cant afford to just blow up every planet with space marines on them, but the marines can wipe out whole regiments that way. Of course the same goes for Baal Secundus or Fenris.

Heh... Sad thing is... Astropaths are indeed mutants... They can not reproduce except with others of the same kind I believe. Though it may be not at all.

And I like your last paragraph. People seem to forgot that the GK are SM, and GK ships possesses Inquisitorial grade and payloads of bombardments, as well as normal attacks... There is a reason the =][= never looses... The exterminatus ain't pretty.. And if SM are involved, the GK will be there, and with them (rebeled against Ordo Malleus or not) comes the power of the Exterminatus.

Originally Posted by Ichor

Ahem, there are twenty super heavies in a regiment. You underestimate the morale of Guardsmen. Death Korps, Cadia, Valhalla, and many others are full of courageos and quite fanatical Guardsmen.

Incorrect... I'd love to see your source for 20 in a regiment.. Would you like to see mine? It's a sweet little number called Imperial Armor Volume One... Please.. If you are going to be such a stout and staunch know it all, back yourself up.

And morale of a Cadian or Kriegsman? Much as I like them... You let the entirety of all the Death Companys of the Blood Angels sucessors loose on them, or the full fury of a 13th Co. Wulfen Pack.... They will run like scared children in the cute little flak armor with their little horsies squealing in terror and killing their riders.


EDIT: Also Ichor.. The IG could NOT loose an Exterminatus... That is soley in the hands of the God Emperors Most Holy Ordos of the Inquisition, not the paltry and panicy Imperial Guard.

[Ichor]

Incorrect... I'd love to see your source for 20 in a regiment.. Would you like to see mine? It's a sweet little number called Imperial Armor Volume One... Please.. If you are going to be such a stout and staunch know it all, back yourself up.

I'll give you credit, but I have something called apcocalypse rulebook that states that the super-heavies in a company is 9 to 12.

EDIT: Also Ichor.. The IG could NOT loose an Exterminatus... That is soley in the hands of the God Emperors Most Holy Ordos of the Inquisition, not the paltry and panicy Imperial Guard.

Where did I mention an Exterminatus?

Ok... And you're saying that if an SM force drops in, kills the entirety of the Senior HQ staff, that you HONESTLY think the Imperial Guard could remain a cohesive fighting force? Pffffttt... I'll take my hip waders now.

How are they going to get past the defences? Drop pod down and then kill the leaders, then get annihilated buy the sheer size of the regiment? (though the IG will pretty be much disorganized.) Still, what is to say that they could possibly destroy all the leaders of every regiment? What if the colonel isn't present? The Space Marines simply don't have the resources to win the attrition war. The space marines problay control only around a thousand planets cempared IG, which would number in about one million.

[Wakim]

Boo! you didn`t quote me!

I feel left out

[Baron Spikey]

except the IG dont control any planets- planets aren't (except yet again with a minority of exceptions) run by the military and its a little presumptuous to assume most Imperial planets are inhabited (or even inhabitable).

The Apoc rulebook does indeed state that a Super-Heavy regiment would be made up of 9-12 Super Heavies but 2 pages further on it goes to state that an Imperial Army (Army not just a regiment) is lucky to have even 1 Baneblade, so the Super-Heavy regiments I imagine would be made of the less robust types. I imagine S-H regiments are relatively rare, after all it doesn't really fit with the obvious Imperial standard practice to build 1 Super Heavy when the same resources could be used to build a score of Leman Russ'.

[Ichor]

While true, we're talking on a full out war. If the Space Marines would be pushed to dire circumstances, wouldn't the IG too? The Guard will be churning out a lot more men and tanks than usual. They'd also rush to defend their homeworlds.

[Warmaster Romulas]

Originally Posted by Ichor

While true, we're talking on a full out war. If the Space Marines would be pushed to dire circumstances, wouldn't the IG too? The Guard will be churning out a lot more men and tanks than usual. They'd also rush to defend their homeworlds.

while they are waitong for replacement tanks from a forge world
which only supply certain units doe to ancient bonds with said units
the marines can fabricate their own
yet another self contained aspect

[Ichor]

However, the marines can't match the Guard in how fast the supplies are being produced. A lasgun, while weak, can be made much faster than a bolter. Similarly, a guardsmen can be trained faster than a mairne. The price of self-reliance is not being able to do things as efficiently or quickly.

[Warmaster Romulas]

how about just being self reliant
the guard are not
they rely on the navy for their transport
they rely on mars for super heavies
they rely on forgeworld for their other tanks and equiptment
they rely on the commisariat for discipline
in this fictional war they cant do anything themselves

[Ichor]

Then the war wouldn't even started. If we are going to have this "war" , then the IG need their assests as well.
Marines need forgeworlds for their vehicles and weapons too.

EDIT: though Erus reacted first, I forgot to add the reason is that techamrines train at forgewrolds. By removing them, you'd lack the knowledge to build what you need.

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Ichor

Then the war wouldn't even started. If we are going to have this "war" , then the IG need their assests as well.
Marines need forgeworlds for their vehicles and weapons too.

Incorrect. Each and every single chapter keep has it's own set of forges, armory, etc... Whilst Forgworlds SUPPLEMENT their arms capacity, they by no means make or break it for the Marines. Though, especially on things like vehicles, production would slow to a crawl.

[Ichor]

The morale of Guard, while not as good as marines, is not to be underestimated. Would krieg cower from the 13th co if they actively volunteer for the most dangerous warzones and never flich form death? Would Cadia fear the Death Company if they stare down the horrors of Chaos each day?