are stormtroopers worth any thing any more?

[Commisar General Pereira]

call me a heretic,but is it wise to abandon stormtroopers and just use vets,I mean I abondoned my sentinels because of their paperplate armor and use 3 hellhounds and find bluntness easier to use,so should i just use vets to fill my elite choice?

[MarkedByChaos]

KEEP YOUR STORM TROOPERS!!!!


Hardened Vetrans are 8 points each the Vetran Sergeant for 13
Storm Troopers are 10 points each and you MAY buy the unit Sergeant up to a Vetran Sergeant for +6

Hardened Vetrans win if you are looking at blanket points cost but for the 2 points difference you are getting a 4+ save rather than a 5+ save.

That is a HUGE difference, it means that your Storm Troopers are not being APed off the table with most standard issue weapons (Bolters, Bolt Pistols, all S5 Tau weapons (not counting Vespid's), Splinter..., Shurikan)! In addition to being able to roll a save, Instead of recieving a 33% chance of surviving a wound they have a 50% chance. I would argue (on another thread perhaps) that the difference between a 4+ and 5+ save is the most significant stepping block/upgrade you could ever buy a model.

that 2 points also buys you frag and krak grenades for the unit!

Hardened Vetrans have a little more versitility (they can recieve one more Special Weapon in the unit as well as having the option of a heavy weapons team) and if that is what you are looking at than I wouldn't blame you for fielding a single unit (as they are an 0-1 unit) but if you are thinking about buying up a unit of Hardened Vetrans consider this: Storm Troopers already have it going on and only cost one of your doctrines

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by Commisar General Pereira

call me a heretic,but is it wise to abandon stormtroopers and just use vets,I mean I abondoned my sentinels because of their paperplate armor and use 3 hellhounds and find bluntness easier to use,so should i just use vets to fill my elite choice?

yo to you

heres the thing, it all depends on what you want them to do on the table. while the 2 units have some similarities in the way they work, its the differences that make the choice.

for example, both units have an excellent (for IG) bs4,meaning they can both shoot better then your average guardsman. however since the vets can have a heavy weapon and an extra special weapon, they tend to shoot a bit more effectively than stormies do.

if you want a unit to effectivly shoot the enemy from afar, go vets.

also, both can infiltrate but only stormtropers can deepstrike, and have enough added survivability (4+sv) to be able to deploy away from your main battle line. this gives you the option to outmanouver (in a sense) your opponent, and if armed with meltas makes them effective tank hunters.

if you need a unit that can take some punishment and still put up a fight, or to ambush the enemy, take stormtroopers.

for my money i'd take a unit of each. vets tooled for tank/transport popping at range (lascannon 3 plasma guns), and a unit of stormies (2 meltas and a power weapon, maybe honourifica and powerfist) to kill armour up close or plug any gaps in the main battle line.

or you could go nuts and give a unit of vets carapace armour and droptroops, making 1 unit with the best of both

food for thought

[Guard Master]

Also don't forget that the Hardened Veteren Srgt can take better CCW than the ST Srgt who is limited to a powerweapon (Even though he should be allowed a powerfist)

[Levin]

I personally use both in my army. Just for different roles. Vets infiltrate as they get the abilty for free. Also, they get an extra special weapon so giving them 3 meltas or plasmas is a must. You could give them a heavy too, but I perfer mobility and find that the 3 plasma layout is great against any army. Either way, turn 1 I'm smoking at least one of your units. A rolled 1 is still a 1 with plasma, but BS 4 helps to hit a few more times before the inevitable burnout. In this case it would be better to have the 4+ save of the storm troopers, but with 2 less shots a turn, it's a toss up.

Point 2
In order for STs to infiltrate, you have to pay an extra point or so per model making them cost 3 more points than standard vets. So for this reason, I usually take them in smaller squads mounted in rhinos to rush foward and pop out with 2 meltas to suprise enemy armor.

In most cases both my Stormtroopers and Vets die by turn 3 but they take a lot more with them before they go. Ultimately it boils down to player preference though.

[Plisken]

Are....Stormm..troopers...Anygood? I thought i woul never hear such a phrase, Anyways yes stortroopers are worth it they cost less then cadain Hardend Vets(Rest there soul) And they already have carapce armour, They also are one of the units in the imperial gaurd that can carry hellguns, at the least better then the cadain lasgun,Stormrtoopers can also use the melta/plasma/flamer/grenade laucher Witch again makes them a versitile infintry choice For your gaurd army.

[Levin]

Yeah, but I think if you look at the question in context, Hardened vets are more versitile and pack more punch for less points. In that way, Storm troopers are somewhat superflous. Don't get me wrong, the models are too cool to pass up and I have to full units of them. But in the end, they're just vets with a 4+. If that's important to you, then you'll take them. If punch is more important, then Vets are the logical choice.

[Steellegioncpt]

I dunno. I think stormtroopers are very fickle. In that they are never guaranteed to make back their points. They only dominate in games where your facing 5+ armour saves i.e. against other guardsmen or orks really..... But I like them because they operate seperatly from the platoon. Normal guardsmen need to be in large numbers and sort of stick together inorder to cover eachothers asses. Whist stormtroopers dont need any cover. PLus infiltrating 2 melta guns isnt a bad thing either.

[Levin]

The meltagun layout seems to be the best way to field these guys. If you only take 5 men it comes out to 70 points, (plus transport) but that can easily be earned back if those shots go into a dread, or a tank of some kind... I guess it really depends on the enemy you're playing against. Necrons and Skimmers laugh at meltaguns.

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by Levin

The meltagun layout seems to be the best way to field these guys. If you only take 5 men it comes out to 70 points, (plus transport) but that can easily be earned back if those shots go into a dread, or a tank of some kind... I guess it really depends on the enemy you're playing against. Necrons and Skimmers laugh at meltaguns.

Well lets not forget if you give them 2 plasma guns. It is just as affective when your going against termies. I mean if you kill one or two of them then you paid back your points.

[Levin]

good point, I often do this when I know my opponent is bringing a lot of 2+ models. The reason I go for the default meltas, is that they punch through tanks with no 5+ invulnerable saves... That and just about every army you play against has a tank or monsterous creature in it. Not all of them have termies.

[Steellegioncpt]

yea I mostly go with the melta combo. But what I never ever do is mix up the special weapons. i.e. having one melta and one plasma. Or worse one gernade launcher and one melta gun....

[hairyyahoo]

Yo to you all

Let us not underestemate the added armour of stormies. When added to your regular battle line they can soak up much more fire than other guardsmen and last longer in cc. Kinda like a rock to anchor the rest of your line around.

[experiment 626]

i personally prefer hardened vets because;
a) vets have 'guard infantry' rule meaning you can apply doctrines to them
b) infiltrate is included in their basic cost
c) better weapon options so you can tool a unit for assault
d) upto 3 special weapon slots (note i never recommend a heavy weapon as vets really need to stay mobile to be effective... leave the big guns for your gun line!)
e) much better equipment/wargear selection for the mandetory vet sergeant. a hidden power fist can easily be a game winner!

if you're going the 'mini marines' route with guard (ie; an all grenedier/storm trooper force) then vets really out-shine the stormies as even after you buy them carapace armour, they will have the same base pts cost as storm troopers! (and btw, the vet serg is simply 13pts, not a basic trooper + upgrade cost - so he's acctually cheaper than a storm troopers vet!)

the only thing the stormies over the vets is the hellgun (is ap5 really *that* important?!) targeters (nearly useless) and frag and krak grenades as standard... (but then, vets are much better in assaults!)

again, like most things i feel it comes down to personal choice. lots of guard player prefer the storm troopers as it's a much cheaper way to get a few 4+ saves into their force and they can deep strike without the need for the drop troops doctrine...
others like myself, prefer the better adaptablity and more numerous options of the vets!

cheers!

[Levin]

To balance what seems to be the consensus... But storm troopers are just cool looking! That's reason enough to want to feild them. I love them, and they're one of the few camo units I have in my IG army, next to my snipers of course.

[experiment 626]

i'll have to post some 'work-in-progress' shots of my inquisition storm troopers...
for those curious - i've based their look on the art from pg29 of codex daemonhunters.

and just for a rebuke! hardened vet's can look just as good as stormies depending on how much effort you're willing to put into converting them

cheers!

[historis]

If you want, you can take hardened vets in carapace armor, and use stormtrooper models.....with permission, of course. I always keep my extra stormtrooper assault weapons models....just in case.

[luciuseternal]

I use my storm troopers to deep strike with 2 plasma guns and 1 plasma pistol, good at taking out vehicles and high cost low number units like terminators

[luciuseternal]

If you like both vets and storm troopers take doctrines grenadiers and vets. Stick the grenadiers in Chimera's and have the best of both worlds.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by luciuseternal

If you like both vets and storm troopers take doctrines grenadiers and vets. Stick the grenadiers in Chimera's and have the best of both worlds.

for added goodness, add-on carapace armour and now you essentially have super storm troopers in the hardened vets!

cheers!

[lynxrpken]

i'll say they can be handy in numbers IF armed with melta bombs they have a east time taking out tanks. other than that I find them usless against anything but high save horde armies. for the same points you spend on a 10 man squad you can get a techpeist and 5 servitors. how many tanks do you loose a game

[thebarnet]

lynxrpken stormtroopers and hardened vets are some of the most useful troops in the IG stormtroopers are capable of taking objectives and helping out your normal IG and hardend vets can be tooled up for tank hunting and can take 3 speical wepions

[lynxrpken]

I use them dont get me wrong what I was saying and maybe badly is that with my army I field a lot of tanks use techpriests and smoke launchers to offset the fact that they get targeted A LOT but they storm troopers are a handy unit good at close combat although I would not rush marines with them.

Second best save in our list, rapid fire and they can carry meltabombs handy for taking out enemy tanks, I ALWAYS field a squad of 10 with meltabombs and deep strike. For the points they're definitely, tit for tat, one of the best units in the list but against marines, grey knights, chaos I find them hard to use effectively perhaps this is my own deficiency but against marines I'll take 10 ratlings over 10 stormtroopers with deep strike for the same cost.
Auto hit, auto wounding 10 man squad is going to cause 7 wounds and you just cant make every save every turn. although I admit there crappy BS makes it so if a marine has bad breath they die. Keep them in cover and go to ground for a 2+ save they'll last the whole game if not assaulted. Also if you do suffer a mass casualty you can always auto pin them

just a thought

[DonKarst0n]

first @hairyyahoo:
A Honorificia Imperialis doesn't allow a ST sergeant to take a powerfist. This is a little bit unclear in your first post in this thread.

And now to Stormies.
I take them because they are cool. With a lot of bad 5+ AS troopers they are 'teh' elite in your army.
It is true that they may be a little bit overcosted for what they do but I have always found the 2 plasmaguns + 1 plasmapistol and 2 melters + infiltrate very usefull.
Yeah I take two squads...
And let us not forget their... now what is the English term?
Targeting systems... the thing which you can use to measure the distance between your ST and your possible target. In my eyes this makes them worth their points.

[135th Armenian Rifles]

Screw stormtroopers and veterans take conscripts ftw, ha ha lol.

Would drop troops count as elite or just regular troops.

[thebarnet]

Also lets not foget that stormtroopers have a reputaion as do hardend vets ifitaing hardend vets squad with 3 melta guns ,or a deepstriking stormtroopers squad with 2 can cause. merry mayhem with a oppnets battle line and plan and cause them to ingnore your tanks and normal infantry that and it's funny to whact as 1 of your stormies squads or hardned vets wastes a landrader or kills the enamy genral i allways take both stormies (in grenaders mode) and hardend vets.