For Justice!!

[precinctomega]

For a long time, I've been a big fan of the Adeptus Arbites. Back when Citadel Journal 19 posted the Precinct 13 list, I built an Arbites army. When CJ 29 printed the 3rd Ed list, I rejigged my army accordingly. I sold its rump off a few years back, as I had too much on my hands and, in any case, 40k had moved on since then and it wasn't a workable list.

But I've been long-habouring the desire to do a proper, tournament-standard WH list arranged to represent the Arbites at war. With the Necromunda Enforcers out there, too, there are fewer and fewer reasons not to do it.

Now, I'm not going to be starting this any time soon. I've got a marine and guard army to finish and sell in order to fund this army. But I thought I could use this forum to fine-tune my tournament list(s), and brainstorm some modelling and converting ideas. Unlike all my other armies to date, I want this army - being my first, true love as it were (I've adored Arbites since the Rogue Trader days) - to be purchased as a block, converted and built as a block and then painted as a block, so it has to be perfectly planned.

I need you help.

Now, I'm not going to set out a precise army list here, as I'm hoping you'll give me some tips to fine-tune it. But this is going to paint the broad sweep of the structure of the army and how I get it to look like the Arbites:

HQ

Judge (Canoness)
Power armoured solid heart of the army, the Judge leads his...

Special Court of Prosecution (S-Court) (Celestians)
Mounted in a tooled up Immolator (Castigator).

Marshal (Inquisitor)
Probably as a roving independent character joining the Patrol Teams.

3x Patrol Teams (Inquisitorial Storm Troopers with shotguns)
With flamers and chimeras.

Suppressors (Exorcists)

The basic plan is to put a flamer wherever a flamer can go. This means that the S-Court will have a heavy flamer and a flamer. The Immolator will have twin heavy flamers. The Patrol Teams will have two flamers each. The chimeras will have turrent mounted heavy flamers and hull-mounted heavy flamers.

The flame weapons really represent webbers and heavy webbers and will be appropriately converted. This will make the army highly effective against horde 'nid, guard and Ork armies, but weak against shooty armies like Tau, Eldar and marines. I'm hoping to level the playing field somewhat with the Exorcists, although I'll need to use cover cleverly to avoid enemy long-ranged anti-tank firepower (especially against Tau).

I've got a couple of Elite slots spare that I'll probably fill with Detectives (Death Cult Assassins) and perhaps a Master Sniper (Vindicare).

Remaining points up to 1500 will be ploughed into the survivability ratio of my vehicles and possibly a fourth Patrol Team. Points over 1500 may go towards tooling up the Inquisitor as a second "heavy hitter" team so that he and the Judge can work in a pincer movement, pinning key enemy shooting units in CC.

I'm very weak in anti-vehicle firepower, though, so suggestions are welcomed.

R.

[hairyyahoo]

having been a massive judge dredd fan as a kid i too have a thing for the arbites. i remember drooling over the models released during 2nd ed and thinking how cool they were.

i don't know much about the list side of things but i'll be on standby for the modelling. what are you planning on basing the standard troopers on? the necromunda enforcers or converted plastic somethings?

something that just occured to me...you might be able to get away with using the rules for arcoflagellents to represent a pack of cybermastifs if you feel like it.

[Lord Commander Erus]

I have a friends list here somewhere of an army that once one a local groups tourney. If I can dig it up, i'll post it for you to view. It might be 3rd Edition though, not sure how long ago it was.

[precinctomega]

Cheers, guys.

I was planning on using the NEC Enforcers. Whilst I prefer the look of the original Arbites, the lack of variation within the old range makes it undesirable. I wouldn't use a plastic range, simply because I want the natue of the force to be immediately obvious to the casual observer.

The use of cybermastiffs as arcoflagellants is naturally tempting. But having seen arcos in action I'm not persuaded of their value in a tournament-style army list. I'm open to persuasion, though.

Anyway, the point is that, although it's themed, its still go to be tournament-effective as far as possible.

R.

[experiment 626]

why not;
a) mount your 'judge squads' in repressors as that's their tank afterall?! and it even comes with a flamer too!

b) take one or two squads w/grenade launchers for a little bit of added punch... the 'frag' rounds could ideally be tear gas canisters with more highly concentrated corrosives to subdue the enemy, while the heavier 'krak' round could be a heavy 'man-stopper' round???

c) for the 'marshal', make him an allied daemonhunter inquisitor and thus gain access to a power fist or thunder hammer! (or heavy shock maul perhaps?!)

d) an inquisitor lord and his retinue could count as a senior judge officer leading a heavy supression squad? heavy bolter servitors for a bit of long-ranged ability to cover your transported troops maybe?

also, in any friendly game, why not ask your opponent if they'd allow you to count your shotguns as having the man-stopper rounds as described in codex: dark angels?
it's not game-breaking in any way, but it would be so in character for a judge force! i know i'd let you do it as it would simply be a fun way to add to the wonderfull narrative of your force!

cheers!

[precinctomega]

a) mount your 'judge squads' in repressors as that's their tank afterall?! and it even comes with a flamer too!

Well, for two reasons. The first is that the Repressor, as a FW tank, isn't tournament-legal - and this army is planned as a tournie army. The second is that, for its points, it's not adequately powerful. I can tool up an Immolator with holy promethium for essential morale-breaking power. And twin-linked heavy flamers trump a single flamer any day of the week!

Also, the official rules for the Repressor no longer mention the Arbites (boo!).

b) take one or two squads w/grenade launchers for a little bit of added punch... the 'frag' rounds could ideally be tear gas canisters with more highly concentrated corrosives to subdue the enemy, while the heavier 'krak' round could be a heavy 'man-stopper' round???

Grenade launchers are, indeed, a traditional Arbites weapon. But I've got to think tactically. What the GLs deliver in tactical flexibility they take away in terms of the terrifying, close range stopping-power of an army of massed flamers.

I'm open to persuasion on this one, though. It's one of the areas I'm most keen to get feedback on, tactically speaking.

c) for the 'marshal', make him an allied daemonhunter inquisitor and thus gain access to a power fist or thunder hammer! (or heavy shock maul perhaps?!)

1) Tournament, remember? Heavy restriction on allies. Also, 2) I've faced a WH army with and allied DH Inquisitor and considered it to be beardiness in the extreme and not deserving of my consideration.

d) an inquisitor lord and his retinue could count as a senior judge officer leading a heavy supression squad? heavy bolter servitors for a bit of long-ranged ability to cover your transported troops maybe?

I'm open to correction, but I have it on good authority that Inq Lords with large retinues tend to be jacks of all trades, masters of none. They don't have the concentrated ranged killy power to put them on a footing with something like a Dev squad, or the combat power to go toe-to-toe with an Assault squad. Yet, they represent a massive points-sink that offers your opponent the chance to cripple your army and obtain a VP advantage in one swoop.

also, in any friendly game, why not ask your opponent if they'd allow you to count your shotguns as having the man-stopper rounds as described in codex: dark angels?
it's not game-breaking in any way, but it would be so in character for a judge force! i know i'd let you do it as it would simply be a fun way to add to the wonderfull narrative of your force!

Totally agree with that one. The swap out of hellguns for shotguns leaves a lot of be desired, but as it's what makes this a "themed" army (which wins mucho Army Composition points at tournies) that makes it strategically worth it. If I can persuade an opponent to let my shotgun rounds be Strength 4, that's awesome, of course.

R.

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by precinctomega

I'm open to correction, but I have it on good authority that Inq Lords with large retinues tend to be jacks of all trades, masters of none. They don't have the concentrated ranged killy power to put them on a footing with something like a Dev squad, or the combat power to go toe-to-toe with an Assault squad. Yet, they represent a massive points-sink that offers your opponent the chance to cripple your army and obtain a VP advantage in one swoop.

Pop a psycannon on him. Give him holocaust and a power weapon. 3-4 plasma cannons or heavy bolters or whatever. Get a sage (BS 5 for =][=) and a mystic, or two (one lets you pot shot any deep striking unit with a certain d6 #'s, two lets any unit within a certain d6's do so instead.). You now have the rival of a dev squad, with a psycannon and a slammin psychic power.

Inquisitor Lords w/ large rets CAN be points sink in the hands of silly people. But just like DE are in 40K, in the hands of someone competent, they are deadly.

[Krom_stormbrow]

Hey PrecintO... Finally we communicate. Possible in person tomorrow.

Some thoughts on the GLs. One of your main concerns in the OP was the lack of anti-armour. In my mind this is where the GLs will come in with the Krak grenade.

other option is to go meltas to get the anti tank, although this just seems un-fluffy for arbites.


And don't forget to take with you your best Stallone impression to the tourney.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by precinctomega

Well, for two reasons. The first is that the Repressor, as a FW tank, isn't tournament-legal - and this army is planned as a tournie army. The second is that, for its points, it's not adequately powerful. I can tool up an Immolator with holy promethium for essential morale-breaking power. And twin-linked heavy flamers trump a single flamer any day of the week!

Also, the official rules for the Repressor no longer mention the Arbites (boo!).

IIRC, the forgeworld update book does list the repressor as available for adeptus arbites? still though, this is why we all need to work at showing the general masses that forgeworld models & rules should be tournament legal! (the one big tourny i play in annually uses everything but the super heavies and it's damn good fun to play against all that wacky stuff!)

Originally Posted by precinctomega

Grenade launchers are, indeed, a traditional Arbites weapon. But I've got to think tactically. What the GLs deliver in tactical flexibility they take away in terms of the terrifying, close range stopping-power of an army of massed flamers.

I'm open to persuasion on this one, though. It's one of the areas I'm most keen to get feedback on, tactically speaking.

grenade launchers are ace! i've loaded down my drop troops with them and they've served me quite well over the years.
keep in mind that S6 krak round will catch alot of people by surprise. hell, i've lost count of the number of tanks my launchers have poped with side/rear shots! (okay, so my guardsmen can deep strike, but mechanised troops should still be able to get at side armour arcs fairly well!)

plus it's always fun to see the look an a space marine player's face when they stop smirking at how your "crappy, worthless & garbage" grenade launcher can wound their smurfs on a 2+!

Originally Posted by precinctomega

1) Tournament, remember? Heavy restriction on allies. Also, 2) I've faced a WH army with and allied DH Inquisitor and considered it to be beardiness in the extreme and not deserving of my consideration.

first, what are the restrictions on allies???

second, while i agree that you can do some very rude stuff by combining the best of both codicies, done in moderation it's not bad... besides, anyone who thinks you're being a beardy git for taking an allied S3/T3 IC w/power fist or thunder hammer needs their head examined!
i say if you can do it within the tournament rules and if it'll look damn cool, then go for it! (hell, i get cries of cheese thrown my way all the time because i play a pure infantry drop troop guard army w/inquisitor lord & culexus allies...)

Originally Posted by precinctomega

I'm open to correction, but I have it on good authority that Inq Lords with large retinues tend to be jacks of all trades, masters of none. They don't have the concentrated ranged killy power to put them on a footing with something like a Dev squad, or the combat power to go toe-to-toe with an Assault squad. Yet, they represent a massive points-sink that offers your opponent the chance to cripple your army and obtain a VP advantage in one swoop.

if you try and multi-task or outfit the inq lord for combat, then yes, he's a massive waste of pts! (the downside of being S3/T3 and an IC to boot!)
however, give him 3 heavy bolter servitors + a couple of acolytes w/carapace armour & bolters and he'll earn his keep.
you could also take the 'devine pronouncement' power for the lord... in the case of an arbite officer, it would be more or less his zealous determination to punish all sinners and his commanding presance that strikes fear into your heretical opponents!

cheers!

[precinctomega]

Well, I'll take a good look at the Inq Lord on the advice of Erus and e626. But with psychic powers and psycannons, I can't help feeling that I'm straying from the Arbites theme somewhat.

Still...

Finally we communicate. Possible in person tomorrow.

Be good to see you. We need all hands on deck. The venue is small and the volume of stuff we've brought across from our old venue is immense. Bring a bin bag and a storage box of some sort or two (the former for the rubbish we don't want any more, the latter for the bits and bobs you're going to take away to build into new terrain).

I used to use a mechanized IG army with GLs and I found that their ability to reach the flanks of enemy armour was severely limited. In addition, whilst some enemy have side armour of 10-12, I encountered a number of problems with the strategy, even when the Chimeras didn't get popped on Turn Two (they usually survive Turn One thanks to smoke launchers).

Tau and Eldar vehicles were too agile, frequently able to slide behind cover or out of range, whilst still being able to bring main weapons to bear on my vehicles and troop concentrations. Space Marine vehicles were simply too tough. At best, I needed 6s to glance. My IG had one GL per squad, plus a heavy weapon and they still struggled. My Patrol Teams may get as many as two GLs, but with no heavy support, they'll be left vulnerable.

Yes, krak grenades are great marine-poppers. But knocking down one man in a squad that has higher I, S, T and WS than everyone in my principle Troop choice is not terribly helpful.

At the moment, I'm looking at mounting HKMs on all my vehicles. Combined with tactical placement of the Exorcists (D6 Str 8 AP1 hits, remember!) I'm hoping that will provide enough tactical flexibility to threaten even a tank-heavy Tau army (my worst nightmare).

But I'm still open to the idea of GLs. I'm just curious whether anyone has ever fought an army with upwards of fifteen flame weapons in it? I get a warm, toasty feeling (pun intended) whenever I imagine the effect of delivering the entire package to an enemy battleline in one go.

The drawback, of course, is that you HAVE to focus your forces: at best you can attack with a two pronged assault with the Exorcists in reserve.

Anyway: some detail.

Judge (Canoness) (45 points)
Power gavel (Blessed weapon) (30 points)
Dictates Imperialis (Book of St Lucius) (5 points)

TOTAL 80

Contemplating the addition of a Rosarius. But as the Judge will be embedded with his S-Court, I'm not sure whether I need special protection from insta-kill weapons, so I'm not considering the Mantle of Ophelia right now.

S-Court (Celestians) x5 (65)
Veteran with power weapons (20)
Hvy Flamer (12)
Flamer (6)

TOTAL 103

Castigator (Immolator) Transport (65)
HKM (15)
Smoke (3)
Extra armour (5)
Chem-web (Holy promethium, Batman!) (10)
Loud Hailers (Laud hailers) (10)
Dozer blade (5)

TOTAL 113

So that's basically 300 points: one-fifth of my total initial army strength, which I think is reasonable for the HQ, plus a significant block of assault capability.

The unit as a whole will be able to deliver two heavy flamers (one re-rolling wounds) a flamer and a bolt pistol that can all shoot the enemy on the turn they charge, giving them the potential for a two S5 and one S4 hit on every member of the target squad (depending on how close they get, obviously).

Of course, not being able to assault on the turn they disembark is a pain. But the main threat of this squad isn't the damage is can do, so much as a the amoung of damage the opponent thinks it can do. I expect to see it sweep around a flank to push enemy troops in to a concentration where they can be hit by the combined strikes of the Exorcists, plus the concentrated flamer power of the Patrol Teams - two heavy flamers per chimera, plus two flamers per squad, plus 2x S3 shotgun hits per Arbitrator.

Now, although I'm a long way from being able to buy this army, just yet, let's talk models for a moment.

The Arbitrators are easy. But the S-Court is a problem. I've done a conversion using a marine body and an Arbitrator head, but it just looks... well, like a Space Marine with a funky helmet, really. I want to try something more original, that has the feel of an Arbitrator, whilst clearly being encased in power armour.

I'm thinking of using marine chest armour, with the backpack from the old SW scout sergeant (if it's still available by then!) and Scout arms with bolters or whatever. The S-Court get heads cut from NEC Enforcers. The Judge gets a bare head from some range or other and Coteaz's hammer (power gavel), plus a suitable book in his other hand (no shortage of models to choose from). But what do I do for the legs?

I'm thinking that they need armoured legs to emphasize the "power armour" point, so that rules out SM Scouts. I could go with Dark Angels, of course. But I'd like to do something a bit less obvious. How do you think High Elf legs would look as a lower half? Would they be silly under the SM chests?

R.

EDIT - I thought I'd quickly share a look at my original "Marshal" model. I might do a new version of this guy for my new Inquisitor-Marshal:

[Drax]

Very nice work there. i wouldn't bother with the Mantle anyway since it only works once it is a bit overpriced.

i would strip those vehicles down heavily to just smokes, EA and, for the theme Dozers.

not sure if anyone has mentioned them but for your vehicles, if you have access to IA:v2 then i would suggest Retributors since they aren't just a Sisters vehicle, but were originally an Arbite one. also it means you can fit 10 models in it but still have a flamer weapon attached

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by precinctomega

Judge (Canoness)
Power gavel (Blessed weapon)
Dictates Imperialis (Book of St Lucius)

TOTAL 80

Contemplating the addition of a Rosarius. But as the Judge will be embedded with his S-Court, I'm not sure whether I need special protection from insta-kill weapons, so I'm not considering the Mantle of Ophelia right now.

+++ take the rosarius! keep in mind about the IC rules in assaults... also being only T3, an invulnerable save is pretty much mandetory if you want this guy to live long enough to swing back.
actually as a general rule of thumb; if it's an IC it needs an invulnerable save.+++

S-Court (Celestians) x5
Veteran with power weapons
Hvy Flamer
Flamer
TOTAL 103

+++ might want to swap that power toy for an eviscerator. (perhaps a heavy 2-handed power maul?!) but being a UC, 'strike last' weapons aren't nearly as big of an issue as you can't normally single them out...
plus it gives you a few more high S hits and it's a great defense against enemy walkers like dreadnoughts who'll get ripped to shreds!

at the very least, give both your characters melta bombs so that armoured enemies won't simply stomp you into a bloody pulp!+++

Castigator (Immolator) Transport
HKM
Smoke
Extra armour
Chem-web (Holy promethium, Batman!)
Loud Hailers (Laud hailers)
Dozer blade
TOTAL 113

+++ lose the hunter-killer MISSile... it never hits sadly, despite it's supposed "hunter" & "killer" promises!
might want to add on a pintle storm bolter if possible as well as it gives you another S4 gun, meaning you can suffer a second weapon destroyed result before being auto-immobilised. (i can't re-call right now if immolators can take the pintle-mounts or not??!)+++

like you've said, you're spending the better part of 300pts for what is only 5 scoring models... that'll be a huge disadvantage to over-come! but with a bit more punch, they should hopefully be able to at least take out their own pts worth of enemy models.

cheers!

[precinctomega]

i wouldn't bother with the Mantle anyway since it only works once it is a bit overpriced.

Sounds like good advice.

i would strip those vehicles down heavily to just smokes, EA and, for the theme Dozers.

Well, it was just the Immolator that was going to get the full works. The Patrol Teams' Chimeras were just going to get PM Stormies and smoke (although having a dozerblade for the theme is a good idea - not sure if it's tactically worth it, though...). The Castigator (Immolator) is the army's "white glove". I wave it around to attract the opponent's attention, either to draw their units towards it (in an elite army, like marines or Necrons) or to push them away (in a horde army, like nids or guard).

That said, perhaps the holy promethium is of questionable value... Thoughts?

if you have access to IA:v2 then i would suggest Retributors since they aren't just a Sisters vehicle, but were originally an Arbite one.

Retributor? You mean Repressor? Although it was described as an Arbites vehicle in the Imperial Armour Update, when Imperial Armour Volume 1 was released, this reference was removed. In any case, much as I'd love to take them, they aren't tournament-legal and can't, in any case, be taken by Inquisition Storm Troopers which - for the purposes of army selection - my Patrol Teams are.

take the rosarius! keep in mind about the IC rules in assaults... also being only T3, an invulnerable save is pretty much mandetory if you want this guy to live long enough to swing back.
actually as a general rule of thumb; if it's an IC it needs an invulnerable save

Good advice. Will do.

might want to swap that power toy for an eviscerator. (perhaps a heavy 2-handed power maul?!) but being a UC, 'strike last' weapons aren't nearly as big of an issue as you can't normally single them out...
plus it gives you a few more high S hits and it's a great defense against enemy walkers like dreadnoughts who'll get ripped to shreds!

I hadn't thought of that. I'd lose the bolt pistol shot, of course. But perhaps the extra whomping power of the eviscerator would make up for it. It could be an awesome model, too... *ponders*

at the very least, give both your characters melta bombs so that armoured enemies won't simply stomp you into a bloody pulp!

Interesting idea. But how often do you see walkers in CC these days? I rarely see Dreadnoughts make it into CC except with other walkers and/or monstrous creatures. Sentinels aren't much of a threat. Eldar WLords are more scary, of course, as are Ork Kans and Dreds but is it worth it? Thoughts from others?

lose the hunter-killer MISSile... it never hits sadly, despite it's supposed "hunter" & "killer" promises!

Wargamer superstition aside (I always call them missiles, because I like seeing other people wince), I think HKMs are underestimated. They used to hit on a plain 4+, but now their chance to hit is based on the crew's BS. For IG, it's still 4+, but for marines and sisters, it's 3+.

That said, I just checked my C:WH and, to my irritation, the crew in the Chimera transport are listed as "Imperial Guard" with "BS 3", rather than as Storm Troopers who have BS 4. That's really annoying. Flipping RAW...

So I may have to re-think my HKM approach. Still, with three HKMs at BS3 and one at BS4, you'd think that I'd be able to pop at least ONE enemy tank. And given that all four HKMs cost 60 points total, just one dead enemy vehicle will be worth the points. That unlimited range shouldn't be underestimated. If you can see it, you can hit it. If you can hit it, you can kill it.

might want to add on a pintle storm bolter if possible

Not possible on an Immolator.

you're spending the better part of 300pts for what is only 5 scoring models...

Actually, not so. First, it's six models in the unit, including the Judge. Second, the Judge is an IC, so he counts as scoring even if his S-Court is wiped out... I think. Correct me, if I'm wrong: I had my rulebook nicked a few months ago and haven't bought a new one yet.

R.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by precinctomega

Actually, not so. First, it's six models in the unit, including the Judge. Second, the Judge is an IC, so he counts as scoring even if his S-Court is wiped out... I think. Correct me, if I'm wrong: I had my rulebook nicked a few months ago and haven't bought a new one yet.

R.

nope... the chart on pg85 under victory points lists that IC's never count as scoring models at any time.

so, his wounds won't count for scoring unit purposes, but you do count his wounds when determining if the unit itself is still at or above 50% for rallying purposes!

good and confusing, isn't it?!

cheers!

[precinctomega]

Ah, right. Worth knowing.

Anyway, some more detail:

Patrol Teams:
10x Arbitrators (Inquisition Storm Troopers) (100)
Veteran (10)
2x Flamer (10)
Chimera (70)
with heavy flamer (10) hull hvy flamer (5), smoke (3), EA (5), PM SB (10), Dozer blade (5)

TOTAL 684

So that's basically 1000 points for my main HQ and three Troop choices.

I want to run my Marshal (Inquisitor) as an IC, joining up with one of the Patrol Teams. I was thinking of giving him a Riot Shield (Rosarius), bolter-flamer and power maul.

Thoughts and suggestions?

R.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by precinctomega

Ah, right. Worth knowing.

Anyway, some more detail:

Patrol Teams:
10x Arbitrators (Inquisition Storm Troopers)
Veteran
2x Flamer

+++ i'd go for a 2:1 ratio between squads with flamers and squads with grenade launchers - just to give some on-site help against armoured targets...

also, since you've paid the pts for the veteran sergeant, at least give him some melta bombs for a bit more anti-tank help. a smattering of power toys and eviscerators would also be a good idea just so you have a bit of punch should you get bogged down in an assault!+++

Chimera
with heavy flamer hull hvy flamer, smoke, EA, PM SB, Dozer blade

TOTAL 684

So that's basically 1000 points for my main HQ and three Troop choices.

I want to run my Marshal (Inquisitor) as an IC, joining up with one of the Patrol Teams. I was thinking of giving him a Riot Shield (Rosarius), bolter-flamer and power maul.

Thoughts and suggestions?

R.

- first off, please keep in mind that you can't post individual pts costs as it infringes on GW's IP policies.

- rosarius is a definite must for the marshal!
again, i'd look at something like the devine pronouncement power which is dead handy! in his case, it's more or less his constant barrage of puritanical curses and promises of delivering the emperor's justice rather than actual 'psychic' ability!

hope this helps,
cheers!

[precinctomega]

please keep in mind that you can't post individual pts costs as it infringes on GW's IP policies

Riiiiight. And ripping off their copyright artwork for the forum headers doesn't... However, I'll stop doing it from now on.

Now, this is an important question and I'd value input from a number of contributors: infantry versus vehicles. I keep hearing people say things like "use GLs to give some anti-armour capability" and "give characters melta bombs so they have some anti-armour punch". But I've been playing 40k for over twenty years in all its forms, and I spent seven years in the Army. It has always been a statement of faith that infantry defeats infantry and armour defeats armour. Whilst I'll admit that I have, on occasion, seen units use melta bombs and krak grenades offensively, the few occasions when such tactics have proved successful are outnumbered a hundredfold by the number of times I've seen a tank put paid to another tank (IRL as well as on the tabletop).

Now, am I missing a trick here?

I can just about imagine a fast-moving, agile unit like marine bikers or Seraphim being able to dash in from behind cover and smack a vehicle with an unexpected melta bomb, but how often does line infantry get to do the same? Really?

R.

[experiment 626]

artwork is one thing - you can't learn how to play 40k for free by looking at the artwork... you can however make army lists without ever needing a codex if everyone posts all the individual pts costs!

i look at the melta bombs especially as a safety net; you really never know when you'll either get muged by a walker of some sort, or else have an oppertunity to take out a carelessly possitioned vehicle!
heck, while it may not be a scoring unit, taking out that 58pts rhino with a grenade launcher or well-placed melta bomb might be the difference between a tie or a win!

your personal experiences will dictate alot, but i won't ever leave home now without at least some type of armour counter in units which i plan to get close to the enemy.
my first astronomi-con tournament for example, my priest with eviscerator took out a total of 7 vehicles in close combat! of corse, he also had a bad habbit of causing large explosions which killed quite a few hapless guardsmen in the process!>.<

cheers!