HELP! - Can't write a Chaos list!

[Blackjack13]

Right I've just got back into gaming and am looking to do 40K again so need an army, it was going to be Marines but the new codex will stop me doing the army I want, Guard is going to cost an arm and a leg, so, as I have always like Chaos (had a fantasy Slaanesh army), I will most likely be doing a Chaos Space Marine force.

Now before now I have never had an army I have truely liked (my Dark Angels were built up when I was just starting and my 'nids were scond hand) so this time round I want to do an army I actually like and contains what I like as I think that is an important aspect of the gaming. However I am fairly competative so want the army to be good (not beardy kill-all evil but good).

Now for every other list I have written for every other army this has been fine but for CSM I have never been able to make a list that is, in my eyes, good tactically and with what I like in it, so I was wondering whether you guys would be able to help me out?

I would like the army to include these units/concepts, unless of course they are pointless/degradational to the 'build', but not limited to these - feel free to include other units. (I haven't read the new codex fully so am not 100% on what changes have been - but I can garuntee that when it comes to list writing it will be the same as the last 2 versions - I also haven't seen any 'new' CSM forces so don't know how they play):

- Undivided Force
- Demon Prince
- Terminators
- Dreadnought
- Khorne Bezerkers/Khorne Marines
- Plague Marine/Nurgle Marines
- More men than tanks, though am not opposed to having some
- Chosen would be nice
- The background for the army is that of a piratical raiding force (a bit like the Red Corsairs)
- Blood Letters
- NO Tzeench
- Ideally NO Slaanesh
- Keep it accurate to the fluff (i.e. infighting between gods etc.)
- Balanced/Leaning slightly towards CC or close range fighting
- NOT BEARDY -> I want my opponent to enjoying playing me
- Capable of fighting most other armies without being at a dramatic disadvantage
- I think that is everything...

The list I am looking for is 1500pts, though if you want to toss in any 250pts add-ons to bulk it up to 1750pts (SMoH!) and 2000pts feel free.

Thanks for any help I appreciate it.

[masterofweirdness]

Hmm... well, if you want nurgle, you'll end up having a tough, slow, but amazing army... if you want khorne, it will be much more up, in your face killers!

Also, as a note, no special demons now... so bloodletters would be just generic "demons" (sucks, don't it?).

Other than that... fast... slow... lots of footsloggers... heavy force... the way I see it your army is going to be something like this:

HQ
1 Daemon Prince

Elites

Termies and/or chosen (pretty hard to do both in 1.5k, IHMO)

Dreadnought... might be hard to throw in if you want some good anti-tank... I'd be more inclined to say drop the dread... thats just me though.

Troops:

Khorne/Nurgle units x 3 or 4... maybe less

Fast Attack
??

Heavy Support

Havocs and maybe a predator?

That help?

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Blackjack13

- Undivided Force
- Demon Prince
+++ waaaay too squishy under the new 'dex! honestly for the pts, you're much better served going with a summoned greater daemon instead! they're dirt cheap really, and they have a much better stat-line overall. (trading 1 less pt of initative for an extra pt in both WS + T)+++

- Terminators
+++ very adaptable, though now they only get the 2nd heavy weapon upgrade if you max the squad out to 10!
still, they're a great unit and are especially mean if you give them the icon of nurgle! i'd even go so far as to only give them 1 or 2 power fists if you go for the IoN as the T5 really improves their overall survivability!+++

- Dreadnought
+++ leave him chain-up back on your battlebarge! he's way too random, not to mention that av12 isn't that hot... i've yet to really see any dread - loyalist or chaos achive much unless you leave it with say a twin-linked autocannon + missile launcher, sit it back 48" away and just blast open transports/skimmers!+++

- Khorne Bezerkers/Khorne Marines
+++ 'zerkers got a whole lot nastier! furious assault + WS5 = pain even for other marines! hitting on 3's really, really makes all the difference here... oh, and always give your skull champ the power fist. you have enough attacks typically to kill even assault marines, but that all-important S8 will save you from nastier things like monstrous creatures and/or enemy IC's!
havocs with the icon of khorne + 4 flamers/meltaguns also make for a hugely nasty close support unit; need to thin out some orks - 4 templates can easily do that! need to slag some termies or other high save troops before they mug your 'zerkers; 4 meltas will knock off pretty much anything! plus, you can then charge your havocs, or let your foolish opponent think you''ve made a mistake, only for you to pull out your bolt pistol/ccw's in combat and hit them back with 3 attack/marine!!!+++

- Plague Marine/Nurgle Marines
+++ there's now a huge glaring difference here; plague marines are insanely durable, but they're only I3 now! chaos marines with the icon of nurgle may not get the 'feel no pain', but that I4 is really something to consider now!
on the other hand, the plague champ does indeed make the perfect candidate for your power fist user as he really isn't giving up his initative now!+++

- More men than tanks, though am not opposed to having some
+++ always a great idea! more men imho will always trump a single big target. just don't neglect your transports... they do come in handy, and are now cheaper than ever!+++

- Chosen would be nice
+++ chosen are insane with their options! use them to fill-in any glaring weakness in your list... they can honestly be configured for any role you can potentially imagine!+++

- The background for the army is that of a piratical raiding force (a bit like the Red Corsairs)
- Blood Letters
- NO Tzeench
- Ideally NO Slaanesh
- Keep it accurate to the fluff (i.e. infighting between gods etc.)
- Balanced/Leaning slightly towards CC or close range fighting
- NOT BEARDY -> I want my opponent to enjoying playing me
- Capable of fighting most other armies without being at a dramatic disadvantage
- I think that is everything...

The list I am looking for is 1500pts, though if you want to toss in any 250pts add-ons to bulk it up to 1750pts (SMoH!) and 2000pts feel free.

Thanks for any help I appreciate it.

well, i hope this helps...

also, consider including some units of lesser daemons. sure they're not the raging nutters like the bloodletters of old, but they're dirt cheap shock assault troops that are great for throwing at your opponent's best units!!! (howling banshees for example will take all day to cut through your daemons...)
S4/T4, 2A & a 5+ invulnerable save for less than the cost of a chaos marine?! honestly, these guys were my best units at a recent tournament as they never once failed to at least hold up my opponent's plans indefinately...

cheers!

[DuskRaider]

Hmm... Well, according to what you're looking for, (piratical raiding force AND Undivided)... and picking the two best gods (Khorne and Nurgle), I'd say this, and mind you I don't have the Codex in front of me, so this is all off the top of my head:

HQ:
Chaos Lord, Mark of Khorne, Terminator Armor, Lightning Claws, Melta Bomb. This would be the ULTIMATE in Close Combat. (I personally am not impressed with the new Daemon Prince stats and lack of Armory options... Sv 3+ and no Termie armor option?! For shame!)

Elite:
Terminators! Terminators, Terminators, Terminators! I would also give these MoK, as the +1 T on a Terminator is pretty useless, IMO. I prefer maxing out a squad in most cases for the extra Reaper Autocannon, and giving the other Combi-Bolters. Deep strike when you feel the need, but a Land Raider is another nigh invincible option for moving these badboys into the thick of it.

As Stitch said, Dreads are pretty much worthless these days, which is really a pity... if you DO decide to use one, however... go with two CC arms. They're monsters on the charge and your troops have less a chance of dying.

Troops:
Now, here's the cool thing with the coming 5th Ed rules... You can use your Plague Marines to screen your Berserkers and improve their movement up the board. I myself am partial to Plague Marines, but I LOVE Berserkers in CC. Very little can beat these guys (Dark Eldar probably the only exception, IMO), but they suck in terms of ranged. So here's my suggestion. Max out your troop slots, but base it on your enemy more so then anything else. Not much a point in stocking up on a majority of Berserkers against a Tau ranged army, and Plague Marines will not be the best option against CC armies like DE, Genestealer lists, etc. etc. So do something like this:

Ranged List:
Plague Marine Squads, 4x 7 man:
-2x Plasma Guns
-Champion: Power Fist, Personal Icon (for those Deep Strike Termies)
Berserker Squads, 3x 10 man (I don't care about Sacred Numbers for Khorne):
-2x Plasma Pistols
-Champion: Power Sword, Plasma Pistol
I prefer a Power Sword due to the fact that A: You don't strike last, and B: It's just Khornate.

Melee List is similar, just make more squads of Berzerkers then PMs.

For Fast Attack, you expressed interest in making a piratical list... I'd think Bikers and Raptors would be GREAT for this. IMO, always... ALWAYS... give Chaos Bikers the Mark of Nurgle. T6 is awesome, that's better then a Daemon Prince, and when using that Turbo Booster you always have a 4+ Inv.
For Raptors, I suggest Mark of Khorne, give the Champion Twin Lightning Claws for a nasty assault monster, and 2 Melta Guns for Anti-Armor.

Concerning Heavy Attack, you could use a Land Raider as heavy armored transport, but that WOULD take up a slot. If you opt not to do this, I suggest a squad of Obliterators, as these guys can be adapted to fit almost any need, and are pretty much in my book, considered a 4th slot option for Terminators (quite similar, stat wise).
I always suggest a Defiler, because if anything it's a fire magnet, allowing the rest of your army to press on. It's great at wiping out vast amounts of infantry, and can tangle with the best of them.
Lastly, I say a Predator. These babies are great, adaptable, and I always bring one in ANY list I make. I always use mine entirely decked out in Lascannons... Defilers, Vindicators, and even Oblits can clear away infantry. My Predator is always solely dedicated to anti-armor, be it other tanks, large or synapse creatures, and scary opposing DPs or characters.

That just about does it. I'm sure some will disagree with what I've said (I'm sure some will think using all 3 Elite slots for Terminators), I use similar to this with my Death Guard army (with the exception of Fast Attack and Oblits/Berserkers), and haven't been beaten too much... Most of all, it makes for fun games!

[hairyyahoo]

well, something to think about is the ability of chaos armies to place very accurate deepstrikers thanks to the rules for icons. any unit DSing with in 6" of one don't scatter so you can place them exactly where you need them, couple this with the fact that daemons can assult the turn they come in and a lot of options open up.

i'm having some good success with a variation of the old daemon bomb tactic. turbo boost some bikes up to a vulnerable part of your opponents battleline and use their icon to bring down daemons, termies and obliterators. the daemons charge straight in, supported by the bikers, and save the heavier stuff from getting shot at point blank, and the turn after the termies make their presence felt.

if you find youself with 140pts to spare and already have a solid HQ consider a khorne lord with a bloodfeeder daemon weapon. i've taken one in my last few games and he rarely fails to preform. sure, by the end of the game he's always dead having axed himself in the face repeatedly with the daemon weapon, i fact i 3 games the only wounds he's taken came from his own weapon , but not til after he's killed at least 3 times his own points in enemy. the potential to roll 18 attacks for a single model on the charge is just too good to pass up

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

if you find youself with 140pts to spare and already have a solid HQ consider a khorne lord with a bloodfeeder daemon weapon. i've taken one in my last few games and he rarely fails to preform. sure, by the end of the game he's always dead having axed himself in the face repeatedly with the daemon weapon, i fact i 3 games the only wounds he's taken came from his own weapon , but not til after he's killed at least 3 times his own points in enemy. the potential to roll 18 attacks for a single model on the charge is just too good to pass up

I hate it when people tell me how good the options for the chaos lord are...

Now I need to rebuild my list to consider this wonderful weapon... or something like that...

[DuskRaider]

I'm worried about killing myself with the Khorne weapon. I rather enjoy the Nurgle Daemon Weapon, with 5th Ed. I hear it'll wound on a 2+.

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by DuskRaider

I'm worried about killing myself with the Khorne weapon. I rather enjoy the Nurgle Daemon Weapon, with 5th Ed. I hear it'll wound on a 2+.

lmao. when you take the bloodfeeder you know the guy's gonna die, but you're gambling that he can take out enough of the enemy to justify the risk point in case, my last game with him he axed himself in the face on turn 5 shortly after taking out 2 tactical squads and the better part of a death company almost single handedly! points well spent i say

[hashulaman]

If i had a choice between nurlge and khorne, I'd go Death guard all the way, FnP is a blessing