5th Edition Rumour Round up

[Baron Spikey]

Courtesy chiaroscuros from Warseer

MAJOR CHANGES

1. Wounds are allocated prior to saving throws taken. Wounds must be applied evenly to all models … When assigning wounds to models (prior to making saving throws) the owning player may allocate as they wish. For example, if there are enough wounds to give every single model in the unit two wounds, with one addition wound left over, a player can give one of the models two lascannon hits and a bolter hit. So instant kill wounds can still be doubled (or even tripled up if there are enough of them to spread evenly among the unit). Each individual model then takes his saves individually. This slows things down but does make it simple to understand (especially when half the unit is in cover).
2. Units may choose to “run” instead of shoot. They move an additional D6” in the shooting phase and are not slowed down by difficult terrain (they must still roll if moving thru dangerous terrain). Models that run may not shoot or assault that turn.
3. All models, friendly and otherwise block line of sight (models in the same unit do not block line if sight).
4. All models that are in base to base or within 2” of a model in base to base at the end of the assault move (prior to resolving assault attacks) get their attacks at the appropriate initiative level, regardless of whether they are in base to base or within 2” by the time their initiative comes around.
5. In assaults with multiple units, compare all the wounds on each side. Every unit on the losing side must take a morale test. Every unit that fails must make a roll and compare it with the roll of every enemy unit capable of making a sweeping advance. Any units (on the losing side) that are out-rolled by ANY of the winning rolls are destroyed.
6. During deployment, dedicated transports can only be used by the unit that purchased them plus any independent characters. But after deployment, any friendly unit can use them.
7. Only non-vehicle troop units can be scoring units. There is no longer a “below half strength” rule. As long is the troop isn’t falling back (or has a special rule saying it doesn’t count as a scoring unit) then it counts.
8. Deepstriking has changed! You place a single model and scatter like normal. Then you place your models in concentric rings like before. But if even a single model cannot be placed (due to being off the table, impassible terrain, or being within an 1” of an enemy model, you roll a D6. On a 1 the entire unit (not just the model with a problem) is removed from the game and destroyed. On a 2 or 3, the entire unit is removed from the game and counts as being below half strength at the end of the game. On a 4-6, the models are redeployed anywhere on the table (in a viable deepstrike formation and does not roll to scatter).

THINGS THAT SEEM LIKE A BAD IDEA

1. If a unit gains a cover save, it can either take its cover save or its armour save (if greater). So a marine in cover has a 3+ “invulnerable” save against low AP weapondry.
2. In addition to a -1 modify for being outnumbered in combat, leadership is further modified by a -1 for each wound their side lost combat by.
3. A falling back unit cannot assault an enemy unit and if assaulted, must immediately perform another fall back unit in an attempt to avoid assault. If unsuccessful (if the enemy could reach them in its assault move), the unit is immediately destroyed. The assaulting enemy unit is not moved and may not assault again that turn.

MINOR ERRATA

1. All partial hits from any type of template count as full hits.
2. When allowed to re-roll dice, re-roll any you wish and leave as-is any you wish.
3. Beasts and Cavalry can enter woods and buildings but assault like infantry when in these areas.
4. Once per turn, now means once on your turn and once on your opponent’s turn. If it is spelled out as a “game turn” then it means once per round.
5. A model may not touch an enemy model in the movement phase. If the model is not going to assault that enemy model, it must stay at more than 1” away. (it doesn’t state this but if you are going to assault, you can be 1/16” away as long as the models don’t touch).
6. Random/compulsory movement is affected by terrain (with movement halved).
7. Units engaged with an enemy in close combat may not move in the movement phase.
8. Enemy and Friendly models are impassible terrain, but models may move thru the spaces between friendly models (as long as their bases are smaller than the gap).
9. A unit is 3” away from difficult terrain and wants to enter it. If they roll snake eyes, they can still move up to 6” to get as many models to the edge of the difficult terrain as possible.
10. Stage 7 of the shooting chart ends in an uncompleted sentence.
11. Models that are partially obscured can not be fired on.
12. A unit can always fire thru an intervening unit to a unit that it is partially obscuring as long as the unit that is shooting has no weapons that can hurt the intervening unit. Their example is a unit hiding behind a tank. If I read this correctly, if you can see part of one model, then somehow the tank becomes transparent…
13. To fire, you need to have one enemy model that is completely in the clear or one enemy model that partially obscured by something that can’t be hurt by your unit’s weapons.
14. You measure range to determine whether the enemy is close enough to fire at and you measure range to see who in the unit can fire. But you don’t measure range to determine who can take wounds. Everyone in the target unit can be hit (this includes models that are out of range and out of line of sight).
15. Models with a BS of 6 or better get an automatic re-roll to hit. The BS will determine what the second roll needs to be to hit (it is a different number than the first roll). For example BS of 6 gives you a roll of 2+ and a re-roll of 6+. A BS of 10 give you a roll of 2+ and a re-roll of 2+. If this model would already get a re-roll, then he would get a roll of 2+ with a re-roll of 2+, but would not get a third re-roll.
16. Cover now has three levels… hedges and high grass give a 5+ save, buildings give a 3+ save and EVERYTHING ELSE gives a 4+ save.
17. Models partially in area terrain gain a cover save.
18. Models deeper than 2” in area terrain give a cover save to whatever unit they are shooting at.
19. Since each wound is allocated to each model, determine whether that particular model gains a cover save prior to saves.
20. The rules then completely conflict with an early section and say the models in area terrain that are out of line of sight can not have wounds allocated to them. This is probably a case of cut and paste and may not be correct.
21. The rules then completely conflict again with an earlier section and say that if the majority of models are in cover, all models count as in cover and if the majority of models are out of cover, then none of them have a cover save. Again, I think this is case of cut and paste and is not correct.
22. After rolls to hit and to wound are rolled, the unit under fire can declare that they are “taking cover – pinned”. If in cover, they gain a +1 to this cover save and if not in cover gain a 6+ cover save. This unit immediately becomes pinned and may not do any actions on their next turn. After this, they return to normal and take normal actions.
23. If a model with a special weapon is killed, it can not be picked up by another model in the unit, it is lost.
24. They directly conflict themselves on how wounds are assigned/saved for multi-wound models (which match the old rules of rolling the saves and then assigning the wounds rather than the new way of assigning the wounds and then rolling the saves). Copy paste strikes again… or multi wound models take wounds differently than single wound models.
25. Alter saving throws are failed, the owning player may chose any similar model on which to take the wounds (it must have the same profile, weapons, options, etc).
26. The diagram for rapid fire weapons has a big note on it saying “this needs changing”… hmmm…
27. If the center of a blast template is off the table, the entire shot is wasted.
28. “Get’s hot” only take affect if you roll a 1 (no more 1’s if you fire once, 1’s and 2’s if you double tap).
29. Multiple flamer templates are now very straightforward. You place each template and determine the number of wounds each causes. If multiple templates cover the same model, it causes multiple wounds. After the total number of wounds is determined, then wounds are allocated to each model. Very simple and straightforward!! No more going back and forth between hits wounds and saves for multiple templates and multiple weapons.
30. If a unit is wounded by multiple units with pinning weapons, it must take multiple pinning tests.
31. Rending is different. Against non-vehicles, rolls of 6 TO WOUND now cause an automatic AP2 wound (regardless of toughness). Against vehicles, an armour penetration roll of 6 adds an addition D3 to be added to the total.
32. Sniper weapons have pinning and rending but lose the ability to hit on 2+ (they still wound on a 4+ regardless of the targets toughness). Against vehicles, they roll 2D6 (with rending bonuses possible).
33. All units that are going to assault that turn declare their targets, then all movement takes place, then all assaults are resolved. This solves the double assaulting problem.
34. “Pile In” is revised. All models locked in combat but not in base to base move up to 6” to get into base to base. Later in the rules, it then says that models that are locked in combat but not able to assault can move 6”.
35. When moving models into assault (this includes assaulting multiple units), move the closest model the shortest distance into assault. All other models must maintain coherency to the overall unit as they move. No longer do you have to make a daisy chain of movement.
36. Models that are not in base to base or within 2” of a model in base to base but are part of a unit that is assaulting another unit are considered locked. They do not get attacks, but can have wounds assigned to them and can pile in later.
37. Grenades mean that models strike in their normal initiative order instead of last because of terrain. Defensive grenades give 4+D6, assault grenades 5+D6, frag grenades 6+D6, krak grenades 8+2D6 against vehicles in assault.
38. If a unit assaults an enemy unit in area terrain that is already engaged in cc, they strike at normal initiative instead of at initiative 1.
39. Consolidation is now D6” (but it can’t be used to move into a enemy unit that is already engaged in combat).
40. Blast markers and template may not be placed so that they cover any models locked in combat. But they can scatter and all models under a template are hit regardless of line of sight or close combat.
41. Units locked in close combat do not need to take morale or pinning tests due to shooting.
42. Models that at the beginning of the fight that were engaged with a single enemy (but are assaulted by additional units) must make all of its attacks against the first unit.
43. Models that at the beginning of the fight that are engaged with multiple enemy units may split their attacks any way that they wish. Declare this before rolling to hit.
44. A model with a poisoned weapon automatically wounds on a specific roll number. If the strength vs toughness comparison is better than the automatic roll number, the model uses the better number and gains a re-roll.
45. Powerfists do not gain an additional attack with a second cc weapon unless the other weapon is another powerfist or thunderhammer.
46. A unit that suffers 25% or greater casualities in a single phase must pass a morale test or fall back (a unit locked in close combat or already falling back does not have to take this test)
47. Fearless units that lose combat and are outnumber lose a wound for being outnumbered in combat, 2 wounds of being outnumbered 2 to 1, 10 wounds for being outnumbered 10 to 1, etc… Walkers suffer glancing hits instead of wounds.
48. “Friends falling back” says that if a friendly unit falls back thru other units, the other units must take a morale check to see if they fall back too.
49. Falling back is not affected by difficult terrain but must test for dangerous terrain. Falling back units may move thru friendly units (ignore base width restrictions) but if they would end their move on top of a friendly unit, move them ****her until they are past this unit. On a model by model basis, if any falling back model encounters impassable terrain, enemy models (not counting ones that were locked in that combat), or the table edge, the model is immediately removed. Falling back units may continue shooting and may choose to run instead of shooting (but must run in the direction of the nearest table edge). I imagine that they will revise this to be running in the same direction as the fall back, otherwise you could get in a situation where they fall back and run forward (which is doesn’t make sense).
50. A falling back unit cannot regroup if within 6” of an enemy or at less than half strength. This test is at +1 if there are no visible enemies and at +1 if the majority of the models are inside area terrain. If successful, the unit may move up to 3” (it counts as moving regardless), and it may shoot, run or assault if possible.
51. Independent characters can join with other independent characters as well as other units (but not vehicle squads). If a character ends its movement within 2” of another unit, it automatically joins that unit. If the character ends its movement within 2” of multiple units, it must declare which unit it has joined.
52. Independent characters that have joined a unit can not be targeted by shooting but can have wounds assigned to it. I imagine that they will reword this so that in a situation where there are more wounds than models in a unit, then wounds must be allocated to the independent character.
53. Independent characters that have not joined a unit CAN be targeted by shooting.
54. Independent characters that have joined a unit must shoot at the same target that the rest of the unit shoots at.
55. Psychers must take a perils of the warp each time they use a physic power. This test is successful if equal or less than the leadership of this model. This model suffers a unsaveable wound if the roll is 2 or 12. Invulnerable saves may be used but they must be passed twice.
56. Monstrous creatures can fire twice but both shots must be at the same target.
57. ALL jump infantry units may enter play by deep strike.
58. Bikes are not affected by difficult terrain (either in the movement or assault phase) but must take a dangerous terrain test if entering or moving thru.
59. ALL bikes have turbo-boost and the “relentless” special rule, but may not “run”. They may fire one weapon per rider.
60. Beasts and cavalry move like infantry (including the ability to run). They also have the Fleet ability which allows them to charge after running. They can charge 12” but are affected by terrain (double the distance allowed by the difficult terrain test).
61. Artillery units may not run or assault if they have any guns with them. They can be pinned but this gives no protection to the guns. If falling back after an assault against a unit that can sweeping advance, the artillery automatically loses the initiative roll and is destroyed.
62. Vehicle shooting is measured from the weapon for line of sight and range.
63. If a vehicle starts its movement on the road (and doesn’t leave the road) and does nothing else (smoke launchers, embarking/disembarking passengers, shooting, etc) it may double its normal movement.
64. All vehicles have the relentless special rule (may fire heavy and rapidfire weapons as if stationary while moving).
65. If a firing squad has models facing different armour sides of a vehicle, use the side that the majority of the models (that have weapons able to hurt the vehicle)
66. Blast templates (after rolling for scatter) that end up with the center of the template over the vehicle are at full strength and the armour facing is determined by the line between the shooter and the vehicle. Blast templates that scatter and end up covering the model but with the template hole of the vehicle are resolved at half strength and the armour facing is determined by the line between the center of the template hole and the vehicle.
67. AP1 weapons add +1 modifier to the vehicle damage result table.
68. AP- weapons add -1 modifier to the vehicle damage result table.
69. Double immobilized is weapon destroyed. If there are no weapons left on a weapon destroyed result, then the vehicle is immobilized. If the vehicle is immobilized and has no weapons left, and the vehicle suffers any damage, it is “destroyed – wrecked” result instead.
70. “Destroyed – exploded” causes a S3, AP- wound to all models within D6”.
71. If a vehicle is obscured and hit, it may take a save, just like a model… 3+ for buildings, 5+ for hedges and 4+ for everything else. If successful, then the hit is ignored.
72. Smoke launchers give a 5+ cover save and can be used even if vehicle is shaken or stunned.
73. Models that assault a vehicle are not considered locked in combat and after an assault both the assaulting unit and the vehicle are free to move away. If neither move away then the unit may assault the vehicle again on the enemy’s turn (both may be shot at during the shooting phase).
74. Against squadrons of vehicles (like a unit of sentinels) a unit assaulting the squadron must treat each vehicle as a separate unit.
75. Models can only disembark/embark from a vehicle during the movement phase (no disembarking during the assault phase).
76. If a vehicle that isn't open topped has moved prior to disembarking a unit, that unit may not move or assault after its disembarking move of 2” but may shoot.
77. A unit that shoots at a transport and destroys it, it may assault the unit inside the vehicle in the assault phase.
78. There is now tank-shocking and ramming.
79. Hits of passengers from penetrating shots in an open topped vehicle are S3 instead of S4.
80. Fast vehicle may fire all their weapons after moving 6”, one main weapon and all defensive weapons after moving 12” and may move up to 18” but not fire any weapons.
81. Regular vehicles that move 6” may fire 1 main and all defensive weapons, but may not fire anything if it moves over 6”.
82. Skimmers moving 6”-18” receive a 5+ save to hits.
83. Walkers can run in the shooting phase.
84. If a walker moves, it can only fire one main weapon and all defensive weapons, if it is stays still, it may fire all of its weapons.
85. Non immobilized walkers can only be hit by meltabombs and grenades on to hit of 6.
86. Walkers can be rammed by a tank. Walkers can choice to do a death or glory but if unsuccessful, it is bowled over and hit on rear armour when hits are resolved.
87. New universal rules… “eternal warrior” immune to instant death…
88. “Preferred enemies” allows you to reroll to hits against a specific enemy.
89. “Relentless” allows you to fire rapidfire and heavy weapons as if you haven’t moved that turn and allows you to assault that turn .
90. “Stealth” increases this unit’s cover save by +1.
91. “Stubborn” units ignore negative leadership modifiers when taking morale tests.
92. “Turboboost” all bikes and jetbikes have the ability to move 24” but cannot move thru difficult cover, shoot, assault, or move in any other phase of battle. In the following turn, these models gain a 3+ cover save (this unit must have moved at least 18” from its start point).
93. There are now only three types of missions but there are also three different table setups, so there are 9 different combinations. For missions there is recon, take and hold and total annihilation. The first two require scoring units.
94. There are no secrets. A player can ask to see the opponent’s roster at any time.
95. On turn 5, reserves automatically arrive (if they haven’t already successfully rolled to appear).
96. If units with scout or infiltrate are placed in reserve (even those with transports) they may attempt to “outflank”. On a D6 roll of 1 or 2, they enter from short table edge on the left, on a roll of 3 or 4 they enter from the short table edge on the right and on a roll of 5 or 6 they enter from the opponent’s long table edge.
97. If the game ends in a draw for objectives, it is then decided based on victory points. A difference of over 10% counts as a win.
98. A vehicle that has taken any damage gives half victory points.
99. add +1 modifier to the vehicle damage result table for open topped vehicles.

[kenshin620]

*brain asplodes*

[Astrotrain]

64 means that all heavy weapons on tanks can fire when moving 6?

does 77 allude to units being able to fire at the unit AND its transport?

bad idea 1 means that units such as terminators get +2 cover making it as good as a +2 I save?

23-when could members of the same unit pick up dead guy's weapons?

[Baron Spikey]

Originally Posted by Astrotrain

64 means that all heavy weapons on tanks can fire when moving 6?

does 77 allude to units being able to fire at the unit AND its transport?

bad idea 1 means that units such as terminators get +2 cover making it as good as a +2 I save?

23-when could members of the same unit pick up dead guy's weapons?

64- means that a Tank classes has relentless so it can fire any type of weapon even if it moves, a clarification that was missing before hand.

77- I imagine its the idea that any shots left over from destroying the transport are directed at the unit it was transporting.

bad idea 1- possibly except for the fact that now flamers can kill Terminators without them getting an armour save.

23- before you rolled to see how many failed save there were before allocating casualties, so you could always rationalise that the Plasma Gun (for example) had simply been picked up by another member of the squad. Now you allocate wounds before taking saving throws so its possible to kill off the special/heavy weapon troopers.

[Baron Spikey]

News on the interweb- according to GW 5th Edition is crash landing in June

[experiment 626]

we've actually been playing with the "leaked" Mk5 rules...

the biggest change we've rencently heard is that defensive weapons are now S5 instead of the 1st printing of only S4. so heavy bolters & burst cannons are back in, but those pointy-eared eldar still lose out as ther shurican cannons are a meaty S6!

cheers!

[Baron Spikey]

I think its because that pre-rule book was 'leaked' a while ago now, its basically just been a big play test exercise for GW- imagine if you will....

"Sir, sir the Internets turned on us because of that defensive weapons thing"

"You mean some people on the internet have disagreed with it?"

"No! The actual internet is screaming with rage, all our tech guys can hear is 'GW Burn, GW Burn'"

"Dear Lord of dairy products change the ruling, change it now" crawls into corner and weeps

[Dravenguild]

What do you mean flamers can kill terminators without an armor save? wouldn't they get a 2+ armor save against a craptacualr flamer or a 2+ invul?

also what makes me hesitant to accept these new rules is they look like they'll slow the game more now than prior editions, games already take at least 3+ hours for me to play. These confusing and unnecessary additions appear to prolong the dullness of drawn out combat.

combine that with the lack of power gaming and you add a good 2 or more hours wasted trying to fight drawn combat.

Any experience with this 626? Do any of your games take longer because of this?

[Baron Spikey]

well from what I've heard these games will still take a lot less time than 2nd Edition ones- what I meant about the Terminators is that if they decided to use a cover save (for some reason) a flamer would ignore it, as flamers do.

[word bearers 81007]

i don't like it. i hope most of those are rumors and not facts. 25pts for a powerfist and i don't get a bonus attack for two weapons **** that. we'll see i guess

[Dravenguild]

I agree, if powerfists are going to be an I1 points sink then they better be worth it.

[word bearers 81007]

i want 5th edition to fix the few problems that we have in the system. not make me want to switch over to fantasy damnit

[Dravenguild]

For me as well, GW is notorious for "the cake is a lie" situations.


They'll give you shiny IG doctrines, chapter traits and daemonic gifts only to rip them away with no compensation for the loss.

Or making your entire army streamlined into the same generic bland army list, and invalidating units in your army ala Iron warriors and some others.

[Baron Spikey]

I'm really liking the new rules (though some of these have changed now- its an on going process as you should realise). I dont want another version of 3rd Edition, I want something that plays differently in more significant ways than 4th Edition does.

[word bearers 81007]

don't get me started i had 2,000 pts of fully painted word bearers (figure the name) before the new codex. forge world, demons, everything like 500 dollars worth then they changed my codex *BAM* army is now rendered useless

[Dravenguild]

Yeah, though I've never really payed attention to the different styles of play during the reign of an edition.

But I can say 4th edition games go really smooth for me other than the confusing terrain rules..

[Dravenguild]

^ And the worst part of that is GW will offer no compensation for their blunderings. You can have your entire army invalidated like lost and the damned, iron warriors, word bearers, alpha legion and more and GW will have no love lost. In fact they'll cause you to buy more models at ridiculous prices.

[Baron Spikey]

well lets wait for the Edition to actually come out before we start criticising it- these rules are after all the play test versions. (as I keep saying )

[Dravenguild]

Yeah, i'll reserve my judgement for now. But like not what i see comes to mind...

[word bearers 81007]

no baron!!! i want to critize now leave me be * sits in corner rocking back n' forth*

[Dravenguild]

Yeah, but as i've learned on warseer, things and rumours we hear about are actually precursors of whats to come, so i'm sure 95% of these rules will go into effect.