Grenades

[JoeGuardsman]

I have seen a couple of times on this board now that some people think that if you give a Veteran Sergeant grenades that the whole unit will benefit, saying that it is a loophole and that it saves you points. I just want to say that you are wrong it is not a loophole and you have been cheating. Only the models with the grenades benefit from having them, just like only the models in cover benefit from being in cover.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by JoeGuardsman

I have seen a couple of times on this board now that some people think that if you give a Veteran Sergeant grenades that the whole unit will benefit, saying that it is a loophole and that it saves you points. I just want to say that you are wrong it is not a loophole and you have been cheating. Only the models with the grenades benefit from having them, just like only the models in cover benefit from being in cover.

i think the thing that a few members have been getting at isn't that the whole squad gains the benifit, just that you can give grenades to only the vet sergeant himself through the armoury... (and not the actual squad option which forces them upon each and very squad member!)
it isn't a loophole in any way - just clever use of the army list! a loophole is an unforscene and exploitable rule, such as the 1st turn summoning debate surrounding the daemon icon, or the psycannon vs. turbo boost headach!

but, definately a good thing to point out before someone accidently goes and thinks that the vet sergeant can hand out melta bombs like candy!

cheers!

[r4wr89]

mm. it seems like one of those convoluted, headache inducing problems that people have arguments over when playing, ugh. lol you might not even save points, if the bombs/nades are the only thing you give to your sergeant, as termie honors costs anywhere from 13-...?? number of points, and giving frags to every model could only cost 10...:]
-ant

[Gnr. Keil]

I think it is cheaper to give the whole squade a grenades rather than upgrade a Veteran sergeant just to give him grenades. Wish i had a codex here so i could confirm it.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Gnr. Keil

I think it is cheaper to give the whole squade a grenades rather than upgrade a Veteran sergeant just to give him grenades. Wish i had a codex here so i could confirm it.

not really as it all depends on your army! marines generally speaking yes, it's cheaper to just give the assault marines melta bombs... however, not all armies have such expensive squad leaders!

these examples will use an imperial guard infantry squad. (10 men total. assuming no other upgrades beyond greandes!)

- entire squad w/frag grenades = 70 pts
- squad w/veteran sergeant + frag grenades only = 67 pts
- entire squad w/krak grenades = 80 pts
- squad w/veteran sergeant + krak grenades only = 68 pts
- entire squad w/frag & krak grenades = 90 pts
- squad w/veteran sergeant + frag & krak grenades only = 69 pts
- squad w/veteran sergeant + melta bombs only = 71 pts
(note that infantry squads cannot take melta bombs!)

so in the imperial guard, it is cheaper to upgrade a sergeant if you want tank-hunting grenade options! mind you, krak grenades are near worthless in most situations...
the main point for this is the melta bombs option which is usually only availiable to dedicated assault type squads like assault marines or rough riders.

cheers!

[MSguardsmen]

first things first Joeguardsman. becareful of the titles you sling around. this is your only warning you will get from me.


joe you should really try and understand what people are trying to tell you.

heres the situation

9 guardsmen and 1 vet sgt assualt an ork squad in cover. the vet has a frag grenade. the ork squad would usually have 10 initiative when being charged. the guards charge and the vet uses his frag to and increases his squads initiative to ten so that both attack at the same time. by using the sgts grenade you automatically boost the I to 10. there fore your guardsmen do not need to throw grenades into the combat meaing you do not have to buy the grenades for the squad

thats how the rule book has lead me to believe how they are used. its not cheating and that is how my gamers club plays.

[JoeGuardsman]

Sorry guy, you just read the rules wrong. Only the models armed with frag grenades get the benefit. Just part of the common sense thing that I preach.

[MSguardsmen]

hmm yes upon further reading and rereading i have come to the conclusion that my above statement is wrong. in assualt only the models with [u]frags[u] get the Iniative bonus.

what i probably was thinking and meant to have said most this time was that in assualting you should never give an entire unit krak grenades. as kraks & meltas of the imperium are used in assualts against vehicles they are should only be taken by veteran sgt or else you risk wasting points.

sorry for the confusion.

I've never had this issue. The only 'nades I ever give are frag or meltas, and its always squad wide, unless the sarge or asp. champ has a power/chainfist, etc.. Then I don't. I always took it as unless the model had 'em, nothing was gained from 'em!

[Perturabo]

It is all down to interpretation of the rules (which as we all know are very vague). Yes it would seem that the rules state in this case Models armed with grenades etc.

But going back to your first comment I would draw point with your comment of "they are cheating" those are very strong words and should be used carefully,they may simply not know they are doing wrong and need to be corrected-there is a difference between ingorance of a rule and deliberate circumvention!

Please dont bother flaming me, you are right Im just suggesting more diplomacy!

[JoeGuardsman]

I'm saaawi, . I'm a little hot headed with those kinds of mistakes, just got a little worked up.

[Perturabo]

Originally Posted by JoeGuardsman

I'm saaawi, . I'm a little hot headed with those kinds of mistakes, just got a little worked up.

Hey its cool! Just want everyone to be happy (group hug everyone)!

As for the rules I think we all need reminding of the little things at times as its amazing how much you forget if you dont use it regularly (vehicle rules when Im using my Tyranid army), and how many peole outthere despite having a copy of the rule book actualy learnt how to play from a friend and only use the Big Grey Book for the tables in the back?

[Dan296]

msguardsman throws down the gauntlet...........dun dun dunnnn

i never bother to give my squads frag grenades. even if theyre an assault type squad. i really dont see how you could justify that the sarge with frags makes the entire squad benifit. it would just let him....but whatever! we figured it out. if i gave every assault model in the world eaters model that could have them frag grenades.....wow...that would be about 100 points right there.

[MSguardsmen]

i did say that i was wrong and that it was an acident. (good my grammer sucks) any way i dont know how many people have watched a grenade go off or thrown one. yes it is illegal down here but that doesnt stop most people who know where to find them. i have thrown a live grenade and watched it blow behind some cover. after watching that i could easily justify why an entire squad would take cover when a grenade it thrown at them.

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah I understand your reasoning and I'm almost in the trench fighting this one with you but only if it were still 2nd edition where things were more micro-managable. The whole reason this was an arguement is because of the high level of abstraction with the rules in 4th edition, i.e. a tank can't run over a person and a landraider can't run over an ork truck and a million other abstractions. The idea behind it is that the board and the area that a grenade would go off is much more spread out. An single squad in assault would span almost 50 yards along a tree line...in some cases, because of the abstraction it could be as little as 10 yards in other cases. See what I mean 40k is just silly.

[rintinglen]

Originally Posted by MSguardsmen

hmm yes upon further reading and rereading i have come to the conclusion that my above statement is wrong. in assualt only the models with [u]frags[u] get the Iniative bonus.

what i probably was thinking and meant to have said most this time was that in assualting you should never give an entire unit krak grenades. as kraks & meltas of the imperium are used in assualts against vehicles they are should only be taken by veteran sgt or else you risk wasting points.

sorry for the confusion.

If you give only one model krak grenades or melta bombs then you only get one attack. If the tank is immobilized or did not move, that's ok, you get a for-sure hit. But if it moved, you only hit on a 4 up, and if it moved over 6 inches, you only hit on a 6. Likewise, if you get in a scrum with a walker, you only hit on sixes (with grenades, that is). My assault units always get at least frags, (having learned my lesson when a squad of Khorne Berserkers bought the farm assaulting a squad of sisters). If I don't have a power fist, then I see that they get at least krak grenades as well.
Shooty squads don't get any, Devestator squads never get them, nor any basic tactical or infantry squads. My thinking is that if those guys get into a close assault, I have already screwed up and I don't expect them to win.