Imperial Guard Doctrines

[JoeGuardsman]

This isn't so much of a question as a debate because no matter what everyone says I'm going to be stubborn and do it my way. I rarely use doctrines but when I do I give every doctrine to every troop. For instance with my Vostroyans - Hardened Fighters, Sharpshooters, Carapace Armor, Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapons platoons - you are talking about +45 points per squad and some times I'd really like to save some points but I don't. I feel that cross training and pride would dictate that every man in a regiment undergoes the same training and so the skills should be uniform. This is mainly concerning the Hardened Fighters and Sharpshooters doctrines as I stubbornly give my Vostroyan Mortars both of them even though they are nigh on useless for them.
So do you think that doctrines must be bought for all applicable members of an army?

[MSguardsmen]

well my forces are cadian NOT CANADIAN STICH. so i would believe that they would give the right training to the right people. so i give sharpshooters to the squads that throw out the most shots, and hardened fighters to the assualt boys and of course iron discipline to the 3 commanders i have in my 1850 point army

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah all the officers get Iron Discipline you have that right. The thing is that it's because the are Cadian that they would train everyone to be a sharpshooter, not just that guy with the autocannon and everyone would be trained to fight in hand to hand not just that crazy guy over there. It's important to identify your regiment through the uniform use of doctrines. If you over specialize by just giving your support squads sharpshooters and your command squads hardened fighters you are no better than a Chaos player with his "veteran skills"...that's right I said it.

[MSguardsmen]

watch thine words or it will be you under the inquisitors eye. if you even think of comparing me to the powers of chaos again the Grey Knights will pay a visit.

[Gnr. Keil]

I will have to agree with Joe. An army especially a general army like Imperail guard need there skills everywhere even if you don't think the squad is going to use it or not. Those men on the mortars still have lasguns they can shoot, and there will come a time when they will need to use them.

[experiment 626]

it definately has merit, especially from a theme and background point of view!

however, when building a list for tournament play especially, i won't do that simply because i want to try and maximise the effectiveness of each unit, for as few pts as possible! that way i can get even more men!!!

the only thing to watch out for giving everyone everything is making sure the unit in question can actually take the doctrine to begin with...
keep in mind the definition of "Guard Infantry" at all times.

cheers!

[MSguardsmen]

exactly while it is fluffy to give an entire regiment a doctrine. to be points wise give it to people who are gonna do the shooting and the fighting. so that way you can have more men. my army has over 100 soldiers and still has enough for 2 bassies and 1 leman

[JoeGuardsman]

Im loving how 100% of the votes agree with me but 100% of the posts disagree with me. I haven't played in any GT's or anything overly competitive like that, but I have beaten the army that won this year's Baltimore GT with my "tourney list" Guard. I don't use any doctrines in my that list though which probably maximizes my point costs cause I just don't feel that the doctrines are worth while unless you are using them for fluff. Just my style of play really cause after buying back Rough riders, conscripts, ogryns and ratlings what 'am I going to do with one doctrine point, especially when I kinda like priests and storm troopers too. 3.5 BS isn't that appealing to me. Sigh...that was my first truely aimless rant on this forum...hope it isn't the start of a trend.

[MSguardsmen]

well the votes agree with you because you dont give us many options its like

yes i give them all the same doctrine
no even though i should
no i dont wanna.

theres not much of a choice in those three decisions

Originally Posted by JoeGuardsman

Im loving how 100% of the votes agree with me but 100% of the posts disagree with me. I haven't played in any GT's or anything overly competitive like that, but I have beaten the army that won this year's Baltimore GT with my "tourney list" Guard. I don't use any doctrines in my that list though which probably maximizes my point costs cause I just don't feel that the doctrines are worth while unless you are using them for fluff. Just my style of play really cause after buying back Rough riders, conscripts, ogryns and ratlings what 'am I going to do with one doctrine point, especially when I kinda like priests and storm troopers too. 3.5 BS isn't that appealing to me. Sigh...that was my first truely aimless rant on this forum...hope it isn't the start of a trend.

Nah. You didn't start an aimless rant. I was actually educated a little as to how Guard armies are played, due to your debates and stances. So, thanks for your aimless rant!

[JoeGuardsman]

MS, there isn't much room to vasilate on the poll. It is just to find out if you feel that the rules read that you must equip every squad with the armies selected doctrines. Pretty much a yes or no answer is all im looking for, I shouldn't have even put in a maybe. Although I knew that most players pick and choose with paying points on doctrines I'm looking to see if people read into the rule the way I do and if they don't whether or not the feel a little guilty.

[MSguardsmen]

actually joe the only doctrines that all guard infantry must take if they select it are the Special Equipment and mechanised all the other doctrine can be given willy nilly to any squad you want as long as doctrine points and game points allow.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by MSguardsmen

actually joe the only doctrines that all guard infantry must take if they select it are the Special Equipment and mechanised all the other doctrine can be given willy nilly to any squad you want as long as doctrine points and game points allow.

ah my dear friend, but you need to read the fine print in the equipment doctrines to see the true beauty of them!
- if an equipment doctrine can be given to rough riders, (like say carapace armour), then you can choose to apply it to the rough riders only!
a very, very handy little trick that can be used to great effect to maximise the survival of that one really important assault unit!

but yes, other than equipment doctrines and mechanised, all other doctrines are non-mandetory and do not have to be utilised if you don't to... (for example, just because i take drop troops doesn't mean i'm going to deep strike anyone if it's not advantageous to me!)

cheers!

[Stubber]

I'd give Doctrines to all applicle units if I was making a 'Fluffy' army but in competative games it is more useful that you can spread the doctrines around as you need them...

[commissarwhiffy]

I play a wholely Cadian army (they look cool) as well as if you play a specific army, you'll often get more than the base 5 doctrines (see errata). Personally I Always use Iron discipline on my officers, and usually sharpshooters on my support squads. I find that BS4 in a basic squad doesnt usually make a huge difference.
I would have to vote for the 3rd option, they should be army oriented but its just not points practical to do it.

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

I find it harder at smaller point levels but as it goes up its easier. But I will probably use it on all my squads seeing as how my docterines are Priests, Ratlings, Close order drill, Drop troops, Veterans.

As you can see I don't have so called point costing docterines. I used to have special weapon squads but couldnt find what the heck it meant I could take extra special squads as what type of choice. Also hardened vets but would cost to much guard are meant to be cheaper and more in number.

[hairyyahoo]

how the hell have i not seen this thread until now?!?

i suppose it all depends on the type of army you want. if you'relooking to create a specialist company the give all your squads the doctrines you choose. but an equilally valid view is that certain units will have certain training to fulfill specific battlefield roles, so you could justify giving sharp shooters to some squads to represent marksmen while giving hardened fighters to others making them kind of commandos, for example.

so i guess i'm kinda sitting on the fence on this one

[Grix]

Here is my take on this, having spent 6 years in the army, traveling from regular army to the special forces area of it.

1. Yes we were all soldiers.

2. We did NOT all have the same training- Particularly in the SF side, it is more or less divided into Group > Company > Team (squad). Now in any given company there will be 5-6 Teams, and within on those teams there will be 1 specialized in mountain and harsh weather survival. 1 specialized in water infiltration and tactics. 1 specialized in urban tactics. So on and so forth.

3. From team to team equipment differs- Each team's mission is different and thus they do not have the same equipment. They do have about 80% same gear, but once your start to look into their specializations the equipment differs.


How does this relate to the topic? Well "realistically" it would be nice if an IG general took doctrines for every single troop in his army. But this is just not realistic. It is not cost effective (point wise). Just like in the actual US Army it is not cost effective (money/time wise) for each team/company within the same group to have all the same equipment and training.