mind war question

[NearSightedFarseer]

This may be a stupid question, but darned if it isn't bothering me. It says "no armour saves allowed", i'm assuming it means that invulnerable saves can be taken or am i wrong?
thanks in advance

[SteveBerenyi]

anything that says no armor saves allowed is just that invulnerable saves are not armor saves so can still be taken.

[NearSightedFarseer]

I figured as much, but under the daemon weapon entry in the new chaos codex, it says the same thing(i won't state specifics), and this tripped me up.
I guess my head is still in the old codex somewhat.

[freaklord]

i don't think you get any save from mind war, it's an attack on a mental level. can't see a refractor field doing anything. field saves only stop phsyical attacks, thays how i play it any how.

[hairyyahoo]

the rules make no distinction between physical and non phsyical attacks. if it says ''no armour saves'' then you don't get an armour save but would get an invuln if you had one, cos that ain't an armour save and it didn't say ''no invuln saves''.

[freaklord]

i think that you have to think about the way the attack works, mind war goes on Ld values, there is no Strength to the attack. it's an attack aimed at the mind of the enemy, and such is not a physical blow, other wise you could even use cover against the attack, as this is not an armour save.

[Drax]

actually that raises a good point - excuse me if it is irrelevent as i don't have access to a 'dex.

does the wording exclude only armour saves?

if so, then a cover save could be taken.

perhaps a bit of a stretch with literal cover saves, but perhaps not with powers such as conceal or stormcaller.

[freaklord]

it just makes sense that mind war ignores, armour and field saves, (and cover saves) a farseer reaches out with his mind and attacks the mind of an enemy, sometimes when the codex's don't word the rules correctly you have to imagine how the rule would fit in a real battle situation.

[Drax]

true, but thats what i am getting at with Conceal and Stormcaller - they aren't literal cover saves. they are more of a mental barrier that distorts the mind of those trying to attack the squad that is benefitting from the power.

it all gets a bit ambiguous when you ignore the RAW element and start saying things like "i imagine the intention is..."

that said, i am sure that a farseer casting mindwar wouldn't be thwarted by a pile of rubble in front of his target

[freaklord]

well like i say i've only just started 40king again, if conceal and stormcaller are mental barriers then yes, i'd definatly say that these abilities would get you a save.

[SteveBerenyi]

Rules specifically state armor saves.

[vinny]

With ref to the saves. Some weapons like the Necron weapon fitted to the piriars (not spelt correctly)or necron lord clearly stat no save or inv save. So for any weapon physical or mental to do damage it must state it. As to the cover save you could say that the animal life within the cover or shielding has a detrimental effect on the mind war giving the targeted enemy a cover save. As to the inv save this also could be argued that either by a device or special armour interups the potency of the psy attack.

[Drax]

but, these mental barriers in games terms work as cover saves.

it is kind of like the shooter has something that to him seems like a physical barrier blocking his aim, rather than an invisible force like a force field.

so do you see where i am coming from? as unlikely as it is that cover saves would work, cover saves through these powers could be justified

EDIT: this was in reply to freaklords last post and obviously the posts in between have clarified the issue

[freaklord]

hmmmm, i'm playing eldar tonight so i'll get a peek at the codex, i'm sure that a field save wouldn't stop Mind War however. but i don't know enough about other races or exotic equipment as yet to comment.

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by SteveBerenyi

Rules specifically state armor saves.

s'true. the dex entry makes no mention of mind war ignoring invuln and/or cover saves, so they can be taken, regardless of how much/little sense or justification there is.

thats the way i'd play it. might be a bit RAWish but meh.

[NearSightedFarseer]

wow, this was more of a response than i was expecting. Thanks for all the insight/thoughts peeps.