Chaos marines

[electricwolf]

i have been wondering something while reading the HH novels:

If the traitor marines have been fighting for thousands of years and some were fighting for hundreds before that, they would have tons and tons of experience in battle.

As we know the more experience you have in battle the better at it you become.

Would the loyal marines even stand a chance?

The oldest of them may be what a thousand years old and entombed in a dreadnaught, the oldest chapter master is maybe what at the most 500yrs old.

[Brother Warchild]

Just becouse your older Doesnt mean you can dodge a bullet lol!! But ya i get what you are saying.

[DuskRaider]

Well, this is generally the reason in game terms that Chaos Space Marines usually have better stats and options, but are more expensive. They're more experienced, tougher, and can do more... but they're less numerous.

[Ides]

Well you see, the funny thing about the oldest chaos marines is that they are usually too busy kicking each other's arses in the Eye of Terror to bother the imperium (Bar the Alpha legion, but we know what trouble they can cause). The only time those troops face the imperium is during Abbadon's black crusades and those tend to speak for themselves.

[Drax]

the legions are not what they were - they are split and constantly warring.

the legions still sustain losses the same way any other force would, and so either grow smaller in number or replace their losses with fresh meat - such new recruits don't have the experience of the originals.

also bear in mind that even for a super human there is only so much experience you can gain in the theatre of war

[sol_blade22]

They have less marines, are subject to infighting and time in the warp/eot is distorted a person may go in there and 30k years might have passed but to the person who went in it might just have been a day or so.

[Davidus]

just slightly off topic, isn't commander dante over 1000 years old?

[BrotherValliant]

yes dante is over a grand and you can only become so good at fighting, the only thing you can do after that is get smarter.

[DuskRaider]

Remember too, after Chaos Marines go so far in normal fighting, weapons usage, and tactics, they also have a full array of gifts from the Ruinous Powers to master

[Githros]

but they don't have the EMPEROR!!

[DuskRaider]

No, their leaders are still alive

[Chaos Lord Horus]

yea, i get you... oh and btw the oldest chapter master is 1000 years old( it's Dante of the blood angels, according to the books)

[Dragoon King]

CSM usually do have the experience edge over the loyalists. However, they lack the strict discipline of the Imperials. A well trained, coherent unit is usually a match for an experienced one, and SM have the numbers advantage, but Chaos has, well, Chaos. Each side has it's strengths and weaknessess, that is what makes them so fun to fight on the table top, in my opinion.

[qwertyblarg]

several reasons i can think of.
one: time flows differently in the warp which s where the CSM mainly reside. ten thousand years to the imperium of man couldbe twenty minutes for the CSM
two: imperial marines start off with more experience due to the doctrination and hypno therapy which the CSM's never got. because of that imperial marines have better protocol, organization and broader skills.
marines leader may be dead but they have the sense of duty and faith that the CSM are lacking in.
besides yes dante is 1000 years old but bjorn the fell handed is ten thousand years old and technically seeing as the wolf throne is normally passed over when the great wolf dies and he didnt he has been technically ruling the SW since the time of the heresy. technically being the main word.

[Dragoon King]

Originally Posted by qwertyblarg

several reasons i can think of.
one: time flows differently in the warp which s where the CSM mainly reside. ten thousand years to the imperium of man couldbe twenty minutes for the CSM
two: imperial marines start off with more experience due to the doctrination and hypno therapy which the CSM's never got. because of that imperial marines have better protocol, organization and broader skills.
marines leader may be dead but they have the sense of duty and faith that the CSM are lacking in.
besides yes dante is 1000 years old but bjorn the fell handed is ten thousand years old and technically seeing as the wolf throne is normally passed over when the great wolf dies and he didnt he has been technically ruling the SW since the time of the heresy. technically being the main word.

Couldn't have said it better.

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

Originally Posted by Drax

the legions are not what they were - they are split and constantly warring.

the legions still sustain losses the same way any other force would, and so either grow smaller in number or replace their losses with fresh meat - such new recruits don't have the experience of the originals.

It is true that the Legions aren't very cohesive, and do go so far as to make war with one another, there's also the idea that, theoretically, the 'freshest meat' would die first in those battles, while the experienced ones would somehow survive by hiding, defecting, or just plain winning.

The Thousand Sons don't have the 'rookie' problem, as they just reincarnate every couple dozen, maybe a few hundred years. But, a lot of marines that are 'dead' and are awaiting resurrection, have been dead since the Burning of Prospero, as detailed in the third Space Wolves book.

There's also the idea of inferior technology, as the CSMs haven't exactly been making newer sets of armor, merely twisting the old ones. Also, you have, as I have heard, the fact that while Chaos doesn't learn new tactics well, the Space Marines are adapting all the time. Well, the non-Ultramarine descended ones. The Ultras have their book, after all, but I suppose they haven't exactly been annihilated yet, so I guess it's good for something.

It is necessarily true about the tactics bit, as these examples show:

World Eaters: Kill! Maim! Burn! No change from that
Thousand Sons: Fling spells everywhere and have your most experienced marines fight off entire squads on their own. Which, apparently, some can. kind of scary.
Alpha Legion: Infiltrate. 'Nuff said

(These are the tactics I've gleaned from the books.)

Also, the time dilation theory works both ways, so while a CSM may experience 10,000 years realtime in 10 hours warptime, he might experience 10,000 years warptime in 10 hours realtime.

[Capitano]

haha

true

but the orginial Legions before HH they had hyprodoctrine...yeah

...

[Dragoon King]

Well, another reason I think the Imperium will hold off Chaos for the foreseeable future, Cadia. A real tough nut to crack, if your a heretic, lol.

[Capitano]

true

but like everything there is a weakness

you could mutate a bunch of the soliders with techs...have a 1/3 go insane with blood lust even their own armies that right there would leave the planet almost barren with those that survive the mutants and insane nuts...then have the 14th black crusade and have the ships hit but that plauge again...leaving only ground forces alive...and those being far and few between...then all abby has to do is use a blackstone fortess to blow up the cadian sun...then that wall is gone forever man...

then he just starts rolling up the galaxy...

[qwertyblarg]

firstly if you d read the eisenhorn books you d know about the pylons at cadia and how the imperium has got the power to shut down the entire eye of terror using alpha plus psykers but considers it madness.
chaos marines had no hypno indoctrination seeing as there loyalty was "assured".
not all of the legions are fragmented. word bearers remain in hosts and the thousand sons dont really have a choice.

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

The Thousand Sons... would they really count?

Actually, on a side note, I've managed to glean a bit of info about them... given that they are my favorite CSM legion (ironic, given that SWs are my favorite SM), it's a bit important to me that I know as much as I can about them.

I know about the whole "Rubric of Ahriman" thing, and that only psyker marines kept their minds, but is it true that Rubric Marines regain a portion of their will when around these psykers?

[DuskRaider]

Death Guard have, by and large, kept their organization. The only split I can think of is those who decided to go off with Typhus, and those who remained behind with Mortarion. Black Legion, Alpha Legion, and Iron Warriors have still maintained most of their organization.

Actually, Black Legion has swelled in ranks, taking some from each Legion as well as new recruits. Emperor's Children and World Eaters are really the only ones who splintered to a great degree. In fact, I'd say a Chaos Legion, under the command of a well respected and competent Lord, is just as organized as a loyalist force.

And if Imperium Astartes are so loyal, why do they constantly sway?







To join the winning side, of course.




(just wanted to point out, I AM kidding )

[Rhaalidor]

What about the Red Corsairs? They are the original (2ed codex) steal 'em all Chaos force (other than the Sons of Horus). They have members from darn near all loyalist Chapters. (Why don't they have Land Speeders?) Anyway, the Traitor Legions are constantly taking in new recruits, and some Chapters have been taken in by Chaos in full. There might be, theoretically, more Choatic Marines than Loyalists. The more recent converts may have very well brought more recent tech to the cause of Chaos. Why don't we have that? Somebody tell me why? My own Stormriders have only turned in the last 100 years, but somewhere along the line, bam, they lost their Land Speeders. Whassup wid dat?

[Capitano]

they really did not have land speeders back then

sooo the only ones in the chaos ranks would be the ones brought over or stollen

[DuskRaider]

Actually, I think they did have Land Speeders during the Great Crusade.