Was Horus Right?

[Steellegioncpt]

I was briefly reading into the Hours Heresy, more spedicficly the cause. Now I dont like why he did it. I mean its like a 14yr girl who didnt get on the cheerleader team. It all really started as a hissy fit. Horus wasnt on the great council. He wasnt (for some reason) worshiped as a god (though all other Primachs were and so was the Emperor). He just got jealous and took power for himself. Though Im not a fan of the reason and I really dont think he had any right to start the Heresy, I still like the fluff.

[Cagarner]

Well he was always known as the favorite son of the emperor. I would have thought that would be enough. And he was also warmaster. I just think the forces of chaos made him want more. he was really a pawn to the Chaos gods.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

wow thats all news to me. I just thought he wanted to rule the galaxy.

is his from the HH novels/art books? i dont trust them too much

[Cagarner]

no, ive just got it from random bits of fluff over the years. Official fluff too.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

damn posting - i was refering to the first post, not your sneaky one

but yeah, the thing about the sons of horus not worshipping him like the other primarchs was news to me.

[Cagarner]

Actually, i did not know about the great Council bit.

Yup. Though he was Warmaster, he was not of the Great Council. His men not worhsipping him as a God, from what I've gathered, is not what upset him. It seems his ill-ease lay with the fact that the others who were worshipped allowed it, and in some cases (whispers on Sanguinius and Lorgar) encouraged it in their ranks. Horus felt, in most stories, that the Crusade and the Imperium were started to end this sort of thing and keep mankind safe from another Age of Strife.

Looking at it from that angle, he wasn't throwing a hissy fit. The cause he had sweat and bled for, a pure and secular Imperium of Man, was slowly being killed off by its creators and those who had sword to uphold it. Think of the men Horus lost (it is noted that while loyal, he did care for the men of his Legion), the absolute sheer horror and just force of will required to do all that he did... Then, one day... It's gone. The very one who had shown him this ideal and swore to him to make it true, and that treated him as father in fact and more, was the one who had cause it to be so.

Horus didn't throw a hissy fit. Horus just finally snapped. Like the rare postal employee who's job just gets too much, Horus said: "All right... *%$# it.. I'm done here... Screw you guys.. I'm going over myah, starting my own Imperium and gonna whip you boys for lieing.".

Atleast.. thats my take on it.

[Ikarus]

Blame the Word Bearers for everything.

Simple.

It was on the moon of the world of Davin that Horus's fate was sealed. This was the second time his Legion had been posted to this world; after the previous visit sixty years earlier the Luna Wolves had adopted the native Davinite institution of warrior lodges. Though these lodges had begun as simple fraternities of warriors, their secretive nature handed Lorgar, the Primarch of the Word Bearers Legion, and his First Chaplain Erebus, the tool they needed to manipulate Horus. Lorgar and his Word Bearers came from a world of religious fanaticism, and had long worshipped the Emperor as a living god. The Word Bearers had sought to spread this Cult of the Emperor to every world they added to the Imperium; but the Emperor hated organized religion, blaming it for much of the darkness that had plagued humanity's history. The Emperor forbade any religious worship in his empire, preferring that his subjects instead accept 'Imperial Truth'-- that reason and science alone presented the tools with which to create a better human future.


Lorgar did not suffer the Emperor's harsh reprimand well. Angered that the Emperor would not accept his devotion, Lorgar turned instead to the Ruinous Powers of the Warp - who were all too willing to accept the devotion of one of humanity's Primarchs. Before long the Word Bearers Legion had been almost entirely corrupted by the Chaos Gods, and Lorgar and his First Chaplain were tasked by the Chaos Gods with corrupting all of their fellow Space Marines--starting with the greatest of them all, the Warmaster Horus.


On Davin's moon, which had been corrupted by the forces of the Chaos God Nurgle, Horus was poisoned by a Chaos-tainted blade wielded by the Chaos-corrupted form of the Imperial Army commander the Warmaster had left behind to govern Davin sixty years before. The potent Chaos sorcery of the blade left Horus with a bleeding wound in his shoulder that the Sons of Horus' apothecaries could not heal, despite the Primarch's superhuman immune system and their own advanced medical technology. Seeing his chance to further the designs of Chaos, Erebus persuaded the Sons of Horus's warrior lodge to allow a group of Davinite shamans - Chaos cultists all - to heal him.


During the rituals, Horus's spirit was transferred into the Warp where he experienced a terrible vision of the very future which his actions would bring about - the Imperium as a repressive, violent and theocratic regime where the Emperor and his Primarchs (but not Horus) were worshipped as divine beings by the masses. The Chaos Gods portrayed themselves as victims of the Emperor's psychic might, and who had no interest in the material world. Horus, already having grown jealous and deeply resentful of his perceived poor treatment at the hands of the Emperor, proved all too willing to accept the Ruinous Powers' false visions. Horus decided that if anyone deserved such an accolade it was he, and not the Emperor, who deserved to be worshipped as a god. The Chaos Gods' pact with Horus was simple: "Give us the Emperor and we will give you the galaxy". He accepted the offer of the Chaos Gods to join their cause: they healed his grievous wound and also gave him access to the powers of the Warp.

[masterofweirdness]

It wasn't all the Word Bearers fault, actually, it was the Emperors.

The Emperor needed to conquer the galaxy to protect Humanity from itself (Pykers were coming, he was planning on helping humanity evolve to a level of pychic power equal to the Eldar, without having all the messed up stuff they have now). So he created the Primarchs. But something went wrong (no one really knows WHAT) but the point is they dissappered. So, using the remants of the Primarchs DNA he created 20 (yes, 20 legions, that in it of itself is another topic though) and sent them out to conquer the world. These legions, with the help of the conquered worlds, and the alliance of Terra, Luna (ships) and Mars (Ad. Mech.) conquered much of the galaxy.

But then, things began to change. The Emperor left the battlefield, he set Horus in charge of the war, which was possiby his first mistake. He went to Terra and hid himself in his palace with only the Sisters of Silence and his Custodes.

Horus was a perfect leader, as were all the Primarchs, but as they war began to end, as Humanity was just about to be reunited, many of the Marines began to wonder, "what will we do now?"

Also, not all of the Primarchs were liked the Emperor, or even knew him (Alpharius had only seen him once), also, as brothers, the Primarchs compteted with each other, and it didn't help that the Emperor seemed to like some better than others (why did Guilliman get off the hook while I got punished???). That was the Emperor's second mistake, he simply said, "NO!" and then expected them to say, "Okay, I won't do it," not "Why not???"

This was what happened to the Word Bearers, when the Emperor said, "I am not a God, you WILL NOT worship me." The chaos gods said, "Worship us then, my friends," and guess what? they did. Emperor's fault, all the way.

So, because of this, the Word Bearers were able to trick Horus into joining them, they just used all his thoughts about the Emperor, that he wasn't fair, that he didn't love Horus, or heck that perhaps he was, after all Horus had done for him, just going to make his men into guardians, no the warriors they were.

So, the Heresy happened.

This BTW is from a combination of my crazed thoughts Wikipedia, and the Black Library forum (see my sig, really its a great forum).

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

i thought horus's possession had nothing to do with the word bearers, wven though they turned beore him. but the rest of that is just what i would have assumed.

where does it mention the word bearers twisting horus?

[NileChild]

During the rituals Ikarus talked about, the first Chaplain of the word bearers, Erebus, disguised himself as Horus's dead comrade and led him through the visions leading him towards chaos. So it was kinda the word bearers' fault. Erebus twisted him to thinking that the emperor was ascending to godhood and would leave man to fend for himself when he finished. Or so all of it is stated during the "False Gods" book.

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by NileChild

During the rituals Ikarus talked about, the first Chaplain of the word bearers, Erebus, disguised himself as Horus's dead comrade and led him through the visions leading him towards chaos. So it was kinda the word bearers' fault. Erebus twisted him to thinking that the emperor was ascending to godhood and would leave man to fend for himself when he finished. Or so all of it is stated during the "False Gods" book.

Although this is partly true, Horus never would have believed this if the Emperor hadn't left the field of battle. Horus, simply put, was to human. And the Chaos gods used this to their advantage. Thougha primarch, he was still human, and it didn't help that he had 19 bros that were trying to vie for control of the Empire.

And of course, even if Horus and Logar had rebelled, it wouldn't have been as bad the other 6 traitor legions had joined them. This too was the Emperor's fault, many of them disliked the Emperor, or were to loyal to Horus.

[Steellegioncpt]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

Looking at it from that angle, he wasn't throwing a hissy fit. The cause he had sweat and bled for, a pure and secular Imperium of Man, was slowly being killed off by its creators and those who had sword to uphold it. Think of the men Horus lost (it is noted that while loyal, he did care for the men of his Legion), the absolute sheer horror and just force of will required to do all that he did... Then, one day... It's gone. The very one who had shown him this ideal and swore to him to make it true, and that treated him as father in fact and more, was the one who had cause it to be so.

Atleast.. thats my take on it.

But how was it being killed off by its creators? The Emperor left the Crusade because he had to reorganize and dictate power to the HUGE Imperium. If anything they were helping. Or are you refering to the chaos bit.

[MSguardsmen]

the greatest enemy of any commander is not the enemy or any mortal blow it is the question: Why?


Space Marines are made for war. When they question this sole fact and if there is anything else in life they lose their way. This happened to Horus (with a little help from Chaos and reasons that have already been said)

[NileChild]

I thinkthat through all of these previous posts and reading false gods, that Jorus was right to question the emperor and call him out, but chaos was the wrong vessel to do so, but also he would've died according to Erebus had he not borrowed the power of chaos. The Emperor needed to be called out but Horus used the wrong means in my opinion.

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by Steellegioncpt

But how was it being killed off by its creators? The Emperor left the Crusade because he had to reorganize and dictate power to the HUGE Imperium. If anything they were helping. Or are you refering to the chaos bit.

I'm going to disagree and say the EoM was not being destroyed by its creators. If anything, it was only just starting to take form as an Interstellar Empire.

The problem with the Emperor is that he wasn't a leader/general he was trying to save humanity, and to this day, (41st millienum with all our source books that is) we don't know how he was going to do this (though it had something to do with a webway portal and a group of female blanks). In fact, if you carefully look at what we know about the Man known to us as the "God" Emperor then we can come to the logical conclusion that his entire life had cumullated to this point in our (mankind) history. THe point where we could effect the warp and the warp can effect us. It was his goal to protect humanity from the warp.

Although another goal he had was in fact the goal of helping humanity in general. This meant that throughout our history he had helped us. I like to think of him as some unknown advisor that the President of the US or the Prime Minister of Britain goes to when they have a major problem (WWII is a great example). In order to do this he had to, for the first time in history, unveil himself and conquer the stars.

However, he made the mistake of reffering to the Primarchs as his "sons". Though perhaps they were, this made them think of him as their "father" which, honestly, isn't a good idea. Also, the primarchs were spoiled. Look at Russ, only after he was slapped silly did he realize that the Emperor was a someone greater than him. Or perhaps Guilliman, a man so arrogant that he drove his brother to Heresy. These guys had serious additude problems and were willing to fight it out in a civil war if needed. So when the Emperor started to stop talking to them they felt abandoned. Some of the more loyal ones (Russ, Guilliman, Vulkan) knew that the Emperor was doing what was best, but others, weren't so sure.

Then the Heresy happened. And IMO I think it was just a result of the Emperor's mistakes (yes, he made them, unless he wanted the Heresy to happen, that is).

[commissarwhiffy]

If you look at original fluff, the Emperor was originally formed by shamans who realised the warp was too powerful for them on their own, so they combined.
The Emperor left the crusade not to rule, since he'd formed the council of terra for that purpose, the Primarchs were pissed they werent on it, because their his sons and immortal, and that the point. They didnt see humans as the same as them and as inferior, which wouldnt have created a very good ruling elite.
Horus was pissed about the council and that the Empror dropped out of sight to carry out his secret work. The Emperor was sorting things out like he had always done for millenia, behind the scenes. But Horus reckoned he didnt trust him to tell him what he was up to.
Erebus tried to lead Horus astray, but Horus saw through his attempts. He chose chaos freely and of his own volition because he saw it as a route to power. They didnt rule him (at least not in the beginning), he was using them as a means to an end. He didnt really want their help initially except for some warp storms to hide in. He made his choices. He forsake all oaths of loyalty and even destroyed those in his legion who didnt agree with him. For power and out of resentment.
Well thats my longwinded opinion anyway :P

[Beastie Boyz]

Actually, in all...

The Word Bearers, in the beginning of the Great Crusade, were advancing slowly, unlike the other Legions. This was because they methodically punished each and every planet for not zealously worshiping the Emperor. He put a stop to all of that, and they advanced at a faster pace.

Later, Kor Phaeron, a Lieutenant of the Word Bearers, and best of friends with the Primarch, Lorgar, of the Chaos Gods. Specifically, how they welcomed, even demanded zealous worship of them, and rather than worship one, they worship/ed the entire Chaos Pantheon. Lorgar appointed Phaeron Master of Faith, given the task to turn the entire Legion to Chaos. As someone else had stated, they had turned to Chaos before the Horus Heresy.

While on a diplomatic mission to the Interex, a small empire consisting of (If I recall right) around 20 planets, with valuable STC information. They were a radical empire, comprised mostly of Humans and another race called the Kinebrach that were a dying race, which had wisely allied with the Human Interex. As such, some, like Abaddon, were wary of the Interex, and saw no point in trying to negotiate.

Now, the Interex were different from the Imperium of Man. The Eldar had told them of Chaos, and of the Warp. They were very wary of Horus and his men from the beginning. Considering his title Warmaster, the Interex was afraid the IoM was tainted by Chaos. Only when Captain Garviel Loken, 10th Company of the Sons of Horus conversed with Mithras Tull of the Interex was it revealed to Tull that the IoM were ignorant of Chaos! Tull explained to Loken how they had feared the Imperium for fear of a Chaos taint. Right after that it was reported that a weapon had been stolen from a museum that the Interex's diplomatic party had shown Horus' later. The IoM's diplomatic party had to fight with the Interex to escape, as they wanted all Marines to be disarmed and put in lockdown, with all vox systems being blocked. Horus was down on the Interex planet, and so every Marine was concerned for his safety.

Later in the Horus Heresy series, in False Gods is it revealed that Erebus stole the weapon, a Anatheme, which is a sentient weapon forged by the Kinebrach. The weapon was then given to Eugan Temba, a great warrior left by Horus to govern a inglorious planet named Davin. He was severely saddened by being left behind by Horus, and it turned to anger, but that isn't shown in the series. Instead, when the speartip landed onto Davin, all that was shown of Temba was that he became a worshiper of Nurgle, as had the various citizens and units on the moon. Whether or not the Word Bearers had turned Temba into the rotted living corpse that he was described as isn't known. It was then that Temba and Horus were mono e mono, because of all the fog, a vox block, and a explosion separating Horus' entourage with him. Temba had given Horus the unhealable cut on his shoulder with the Anatheme before being killed.

A host of Space Marines had found Horus, and he was fine for nearly ten minutes. Just like that, he fell flat on his face, and was rushed to the Vengeful Spirit. Apothecary Vaddon tried to help him, but it was useless. Nothing worked against the Anatheme's cut, even Horus' super-immune system. So Erebus had him brought to the Lodge of the Serpent, a healing lodge on Davin. Someone stated earlier that it was revealed the Lodge was a group of cultists, which is correct. Erebus appeared in Horus' 9 day dream, in which he was to decide his fate. Erebus appeared as Hastur Sejanus, a man who had fallen in a previous battle who was one of Horus' friends. In the same time span, Magnus the Red, the Cyclopean Primarch, foretold that this would happen. He used sorcery, something that was banned by the Emperor in the Council of Nikaea, to gain access into Horus' 9 day dream. The three, Erebus diguised as Sejanus, Horus, and Magnus were discussing things...

Magnus revealed that Sejanus was Erebus in disguise, who in turn told Horus that Magnus used sorcery to gain access to his dream, which greatly angered Horus. Magnus tried to convince Horus to listen to him, that Erebus was trying to turn him to Chaos, but Horus wouldn't listen to his brother primarch, nor would he listen to Erebus for deceiving him. In the end, all the discussion did was further Horus' doubts of the Emperor, and feed his anger towards Magnus (who later turned to Chaos with his Legion in a twist of irony). When Magnus' efforts with Horus had failed, he turned to the Emperor.

Magnus, using a sorcerous ability, contacted the Emperor and forewarned him about Horus' betryal. But the Emperor was more furious for breaking the Edicts of Nikaea, and as such backed Horus against Magnus' proposal. The Emperor told Leman Russ to bring Magnus back to Terra, so that they could talk about Magnus' actions. On the trip to Prospero (Magnus' world), Horus contacted Russ and persuaded him to outright destroy Magnus. On Prospero, Magnus was beaten by Russ, but his sorcerous powers once again saved himself, his Legion, his world, and the knowledge he had accumulated by having a deal with Tzeentch. All of the aforementioned things were moved into the Eye of Terror, and the next time the Thousand Sons were to be seen, they would be on the side of Chaos.

I'll stop my rant for now. If anybody wants me to continue, ask! I'd be glad to at another time.

It mentions it in those nice new book syou don't like, as well as a few other BL sources I'll try and have out to you soon. My library source is actually my friends dads book collection, so it may take a while(monstrous, he's been in it since it started! He has Imperial Robot Minis for crying out loud!). But I will find it!

[Beastie Boyz]

Could you elaborate on that?

[Dan296]

In my opinion, Horus was a good guy. he is a shakespearean tragic hero.
spare me, im in 11th grade english, this is what we are learning about.
he was arrogant and stubborn, and these tragic flaws caused his downfall. he wouldnt listen to magnus. the other primarchs and the emporer ARENT gods! they are men! great, powerful men, but men nontheless. thats like worshipping george washington or alexander the great.

this kinda makes me want to start a PH army.........

[Icarus Athrasuriel]

Horus, like all of the Primarchs, was designed to be perfect, of body AND mind.

However, the Primarchs picked up traits from the human societies they were brought up in. These were the '*****s' in the Primarch's mental armour.

It was inevitable that they would be susceptable to Chaos, and after Horus was injured, the will to live took over, and Horus did all he could to survive, damning himself for eternity. So it was not his fault.

Lorgar was the 'prime' bad guy, not Horus.

[Beastie Boyz]

Even then, it could be argued that Kor Phaeron was the primary one, due to the influence he held over Lorgar. But that wouldn't really be fair, because we don't know that Kor wasn't in turn influenced by someone...and so forth...

Really, the Heresy could only have been prevented by the Emperor, who was off on Terra doing research.

[Dan296]

lets make it simple and say Lorgar