(How) Would you change 40k

[hairyyahoo]

yo to all you dudes

so i was just thinking about all the past editions of 40k that i've played (Rogue Trader to 4th ed.) and the way that the rules have changed from one to the next, and i was wondering what your honest opinions of the current incarnation of the game are. is there anything you think needs to change? is there anything you would happily kill someone for changing? does tha game run smoothly? would you like to see something from a past edition reincarnated?

just curious is all

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

ive always been a big fan of detail. a move back to the more comprehensive rules of second edition would be cool. complete rules overhaul would be a nice thing to imagine, but realistically i would not want to see a drastic change (and i know such a thing will never happen)

model wise i wouldnt mind seeing a move to more realism. imagine what the lotr range is to warhammer, and think of something similar with 40k. id love to see cadians made in the right scale with marines to match. that would be a dream come true, to see models as nice as a detailed karl kopinski picture.

[hairyyahoo]

agreed, the level of detail in the game has fallen drastically since rogue trader, mainly to make the game understandable for younger players i think.

2nd ed was a fantastic game but it did encourage (demand) the creation of uber powerful characters who, thanks to the rules for close combat, could/did kill off entire units single handedly. the biggest changes from 2nd to 3rd ed were aimed at shifting the focus to units over characters, a definate improvement in my books. but coupled with the simplification of the rules system it didn't work too well i think.

mah.

[Rogue_Banana]

Alas, this one hasn't seen enough winters to know what 2nd edition was like. I was ****ing my pants when 2nd edition was around.

Anyways, while new modles would be nice, it would also (more likely than not) increase the cost of the minis, unless GW found a more efffective way of producing them than they currently do. since my army is supported by pocket money, I can't afford marines to be $5 each.

But it could happen. On a similar note, we could also lay golden eggs filled with chocolate mousse.

Both of which I dream about. Consistently.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

imagining the pain associated with laying golden eggs... its enough to put me off

well, the lotr models are not that expensive. though agreed, a complete overhaul of the models wouldnt come cheaply or quickly. then agian that is what happened in 3rd ed. almost everything was done

[Rogue_Banana]

Well that depends on the size of birth canal. And I don't believe I ever clarified whether they would be laid the natural way, or be delivered to me by a cowboy riding an emu, pony express style.

LotR models are also smaller, generally cast in only 1-2 pieces, and not exactly much more detailed than most 40k models.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

but they are more realisitc, which is what i meant. it would be cool to see more natural 40k models, like a more reaistic ork or eldar... or even nid. though a proper baroque astartes, that is more knight than marine (if you get my meaning) would be a cool thing indeed

[Rogue_Banana]

'realistic' is a hard word to use when 80% of the models are made up. In LotR, we all know what humans look like. Humans in 40k also do a good job of looking like humans. However, who knows what is a realistic looking ork is really like? I know more detailed and professional models help the effect, but we just can never be sure.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

well, it would be lesscartoony. and by realisitc i mean to ning down on the outrageous equipment sized (like the 6 ft long lasguns on the cadians, gigantic hands and arms on the catachans, the gigantic helmets on the eldar, the scale and gubbinz on the tanks etc)

[hairyyahoo]

[quote=Rogue_Banana;6109]Well that depends on the size of birth canal. And I don't believe I ever clarified whether they would be laid the natural way, or be delivered to me by a cowboy riding an emu, pony express style.

QUOTE]

thanks, now my computer is covered in coffee. emu-riding postal cowboys indeed. hah

[Rogue_Banana]

Things like that are exactly what GW has been improving upon. For instance, those Catachan models have been in the hobby longer than me. They look cartonny because that was how all the models were made the last time the Catachans were produced. The eldar helmets are much better now, too.

Now let's not say I don't want new models. My brain isn't that damaged. However, all for all, looking at the new models GW has recently come out with, I think we can agree they're doing a good job. The only real question is who they should upgrade next *coughorkscough*

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

well it was said by phil kelly that the orks are getting a new plastic kit for boyz, so i guess well have to wait about 12 months before we can answer that!

well, the plastic marines and eldar guardians were made before the catachans (the hideous hunchback chaos warriors were also made before, so i guess im wrong there )

[Rogue_Banana]

Ah, but guardians and space marines are two prime examples of sculpts that were decent enough tom satnd the test of time. Space Marines especially.

Space marines have recieved a bit of an upgrade anyway.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

scrolls, tabbards and purity seals are more of an accesory pack, but a bit closer to my vision of more knightly figures.

though rules wise, i would like to see:

• grenades make a reappearance;
• the removal of fearless, replacing it with something less extreme
• decent vehicle rules, maybe using the funky see-through targeting grid from rogue trader (ive still got mine!) that was so cool!
• more respect to small armies, like chaos cults, imperial cult (as in just the ecclesiarchy and not inquisitirs and many sisters), cult mechanicus, arbites, genestealer cults, exodites, hrud, demiurge etc, perhaps this could be the focus for a new game, a cross between necromunda and 40k. with 2-3 units per army, maybe one vehicle and a character or two

[Rogue_Banana]

Hear, Hear!

Personally, I think rules for weapons should be changed slightly. for instance, weapons have a longer range, but begin to drastically lose accuracy and effectiveness with range (like in Inquisitor). Or, for instance, my accuracy with some weapon (like pistols) is increased when I stand still

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

well, weapons in second edition had short and long ranges and each weapon may have had a modifier to hit at certain ranges (i cant remember any so im probably wrong). so lasguns and autoguns which otherwise had the same profile (as now) had a different set of modifiers to hit. one could have had +1 to hit at short range while the other could have been -1 at long etc.

great stuff!

and dont get me started on save modifiers... but now that im used to ap, i must say i am a fan

[Rogue_Banana]

Of course for those of us who really want that kind of stuff, there's always Necromunda.

Not that anyone plays anymore...shame, really

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

some people just want more... 10 guys just isnt enough. we want a whole army with such rules

[Rogue_Banana]

beggars can't be choosers, my friend

[Torquemada Coteaz]

hmm scrolling up, there were some good points.
however there's two i'd like to adress:
fearless: it's not THAT extreme, i mean i've probably lost more Knights to outnumbering wounds after a "fearless" assault from horde-ish armies than actual wounds cost :P. It might be a little exaggerated as i can't actually remember how many, but you get the drift. beside's its cool anyways.
Making stuff for the "lesser" armies/races: would, economically, be suicide.

[hairyyahoo]

one thing i dearly miss from early versions of 40k is the psykic phase. yes it was vastly overpowered and reminisent of whfb magic but i liked it. i'm not sure it would translate well into the latesd ed though.

to dead commando: you're right about the old weapon ranges. they also lost 1 point of strength for every 12" form shooter to target, and the larger more powerful weapons could do miltiple wounds per wounding hit. all in all i think the new instant death rule is better/less complecated. i agree with you on the genades issue too, way too downplayed in current rules.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

CARDS! i used to love the power cards, it was like a mini-game in itself!

and i dont really think making smaller armies would be suicide. as long as they hav decent rules (something that LatD sorely needed) and good models (and come one, who wouldnt pay to see some exodites and adeptus mechanicus models? i mean, look at the new harlequins and their rules! if GW wanted to they could easily make any of those smaller atmies playable... ok, maybe not all: the arbities, ecclesiarcy army (one without many sisters i mean) would not be a main army - maybe an ally for a PDF list))

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by DeAd_cOmMaNdO

CARDS! i used to love the power cards, it was like a mini-game in itself!

and i dont really think making smaller armies would be suicide. as long as they hav decent rules (something that LatD sorely needed) and good models (and come one, who wouldnt pay to see some exodites and adeptus mechanicus models? i mean, look at the new harlequins and their rules! if GW wanted to they could easily make any of those smaller atmies playable... ok, maybe not all: the arbities, ecclesiarcy army (one without many sisters i mean) would not be a main army - maybe an ally for a PDF list))

totally! god i miss the old genestealer cult forces. and the old chaos cults. they were cool.

i think for these armies (indeed all those you mentioned) all gw need to do is release 1 decent box of plastics each and a couple of rules, and let the players modle the rest. won't cost 'em much at all, maybe even keep them for mail order only?

[The Horror in the Shadows]

Want the old grenade rules to come back 3rd and 4th ed rules dont let u use a grenade like u really would.
also like to see a return of the genestealer cults (PLZ with new funky models )

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

for these armies (indeed all those you mentioned) all gw need to do is release 1 decent box of plastics each and a couple of rules, and let the players modle the rest. won't cost 'em much at all, maybe even keep them for mail order only?

as much as i hate it, that would probably be expensive beyond repair. each army would probably need better support. with at least a few hq models (variants of the same unit or maybe a lord and psyker), 1 plastic troop box and 2 metal speciallised units (assaulty and shooty) and, if the army calls for it, a vehicle.

in turn all those models will mean a more detailed army list, which chile harder and more expensive to do will surely get more player feedback, especially if done correctly.

im drooling over imagined exodite and ad mech models now

[hairyyahoo]

not necessarily(sp?). look at the lost and the damned list. almost all of that list can be made using existing minis and a bit of imagination, and nicely represents a chaos cult. the same could easily be done for genestealer cults, with a new sprue designed for hybrids and the rest left up to the modellers. even an imperial cult would take very little work as many of the minis are already there.

the exodites ain't even that hard. the exodite knights(?) could be a variation on an exodite warriors sprue mounted on plastic cold ones. the big lizzards might be a bit of a problem though...

i admit that the ad.mech and hrud ideas would be a bit tougher to do but its a start, right?

don't get me wrong, there would have to be a lot of responsibility placed on anyone who would want to play one of these lists to get their army looking the part but thats half the fun of the hobby. definatly not for beginners!