List Tailoring

[Mart007]

lol, Yeah, I was trying to get across imo that there is nothing wrong with itand what you guys thought, let the debate continue!

[Krom_stormbrow]

So.... time to add the third view.... your all dirty rotters. Pah ha

There was a time and I will openly admit I blantantly list tailored (the HB / melta example earler. Yep that was me), now I try and create a balanced list as possible. Why? Because I would like to go and do some tournament play and for that you need experience with balanced lists. I think it's fine if it's all agreed to go "cheese" or blatant tailoring to a specific force with pre knowledge of what will be there, if all parties agree.

In the situation with drax two armies. I think it's fair that he pre-warns eveyone which force he is using. The reason why is that, he knows the force myself or Mart will be bringing... Somewhat of an advantage if you think we won't know which force he will use. Especially after he just managed to reel off a list that is quite possible for Mart to use. So the arguement of not tailoring falls down as he knows what mart has and will (even subconciously) will tailor to combat those threats.

If we all have enough armies to turn up on the day and say... guess what I'm using then great and I look forward when I have my 'nids up and cooking.

In conclusion there is always tailoring when you know the force your opponents will bring and none if it's unclear. But until it's unclear to all the group of gamers, then it should be openly disclosed the army to be used (not your force make up, just the race).

And that's my tupence

*edit - damn typos)

[SteveBerenyi]

i agree, the army usually knows what army it is facing if nothing else.

[Templar Mikeel]

A good example of friendly list tailoring can be found in my 2v2 battle with my Black Templars and 'Gents Sisters against Steves and Brains Orks and Dark Eldar. I knew what I was fighting, Orks and DE, so I look a Land Raider Crusader to combat the Ork horde, and I gave it Blesses Hull to protect against the Dark Lances.

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah that is all well and fair. Just a pity that Blessed Hull is such a stupid rule. We should start a thread about stupid rules somewhere else so I digress. Something thats a little bothersome is that I even have to tailor my balanced armies really. There is no way in the universe that any Guard army would have as many plasma weapons as I put in but in a Tourney and general game environment were most armies are MEQs (Marine Equivalent) you need it.

[Torquemada Coteaz]

...so...
all we've established so far is that various people have various reactions to list tailoring, much like when surveyed for rules lawyering and such.
Each reaction has various degrees and so on.

Basically list tailoring is okay as long as you don't go the powergaming route and always tailor a list specifically to smash an opponent into the ground with a 2k VP lead.

I mean small stuff like taking blessed hull against an eldar lance freak, okay.

Countering an ork army that has a 800 pts warboss+retinue with your own anti-warboss-killer command squad, not okay.

All in all, the rule of thumb IMHO is to keep it to general, basic, blind, guesswork changes, more to "switch up your army" than to "counteract something", you know, mix things up a little. And keep the modifications to a minimum.

[Timber-WoIf]

i try to keep my guard army balanced, mostly because I'm too lazy to actually change everything around all the time, and i don't have the models to either, really. Though i usually feel a little apprehensive when some one pulls out an army list entitled "anti-light infantry", I'm usually confident enough in my own lists abilities to at least give a good fight, and dont mind it. Of course, if someone makes a list specifically tailored to beat my specific army and style of play, then its kinda cheesy. Of course, i simply wont play those people.

[Ikarus]

It depends.

I do it.

I am a powergamer.


Tournaments - I go for more of the balanced, but anti SM lists. Mass doesn't scare me as much.


I tailor my lists to my opponent, if I know that they will tailor against me. Fight fire with fire. It takes skill for HIM and ME to counter each other.


If i play with someone who I know who is less skillful, I take lists that have units I dont use usually, and cool combos for experimentation.


Just me though.

[MarkedByChaos]

See you all have great points, but I have to admit that I prefer when people tailor to my own army. I play with a large group, I have no impulse control, I am financially stable so I can field nearly 3k of just about any army you can think of, (my 2 primary armies each have over 28k), most of my friends are lucky if they can field more than one army and I know exactly what they have.

If I didn't tell them ahead of time what I am playing I would have a very clear advantage. by telling them "hey, I am gonna play Nids t'nite, oh and I am thinking of making it big boy strong" i know that when they bring out all their big guns I am gonna have a heck of a good time trying to pull off the win.

I know that the Eldar player in the group is going to bring a, b and c, he might bring x or he might bring z, how can I not think about that when planning for victory?! we have bloody fights and there is rarely a clear victor, that is awesome. besides fluff dictates that when a SM force is about to take the field they are going to prepare differently when laying siege to an Ork fort than they are gonna prepare for a defense against a Chaos assault, they aren't that dumb! Even Hiveminds start churning out broods appropriate to the coming biomass

fluff-wise it is alot of fun to plan out your battles with one another, you shouldn't be sharing everything but the more you plan the more challenging the fight will be. once the game begins and I've deployed all bets are off but until then...

specifically I like to remind people that their list isn't going to win the fight before it is fought and neither is mine. winning on paper is different than on the field, you can pull off the latter without the former!

Oh and for the record I like loosing as much as winning, so long as I get a good hard fought game that fulfills a given forces fluff!

When playing against people who don't have the resources I do (or at least maybe they have more self control) I like to play lists that are going to give them a more than fighting chance, a lot of people stop playing or find other people to play with when you break them on the battle field to much.
Finally my last bit... I always remember the golden rule when building my lists and playing the game (to many people forget IMHO) .

[Wakim]

IMHO If it`s a tournament, all`s fair

For casual play... not so much

[Mart007]

again all good points, I think the key is moderation. I myself like a close game win or lose, I hate getting whooped, but then I do feel some satisfaction destroying an opponent. But that is because I know we are pretty good gamers and to do that is a one off usually - so enjoy when you can!

My point of view is list tailoring is fine, as long as you don't cheese out! As someone has said the paper army is just the beginning.

I also like to play different variations of an enemy as it keeps it fresh.

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

No I have nothing wrong with it. If you know your opponent use htier weakness like every good tactician. Also msot likely if you know what your facing they will to.

But yer nothing wrong with it. Its tactics and you must use it to your advantage.

But remember an opponent will soon pick up on this and do the same to you.

Basically I don't mind its tactics not cheating.

[Drax]

the thing is that if someone wants to list tailor, there isn't really much to stop them short of refusing to play.

but krom made me take a step back and look at my own approach.

when i write a list (these days) i take units to perform a certain role. now i need them to do this same role against Eldar, Tau and Marines since these are my regular opponents..

now obviously, i know i need to use the same list against 3 different armies, so i think long and hard about my choices so that any given unit isn't going to go to waste against one or more opponent.

if after facing an opponent, something in the list has performed badly, i may tweak it with a different weapon option (but keeping the unit). this is done before i go for the battle however, usually just after the last one

am i in fact tailoring? i hadn't considered that i (still) was.

[Mart007]

I would class that as tailoring on a small scale! Thing is, it is your choice to keep your list the same, but you dont have to in our group. Thing is for tournament play, again as someone has said really you need to make a list to cater against SM as they are going to be your main opponent IMO, I could be wrong but we will see at Conflict this when we enter for the first time!

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

however I must say I don't tailor my army. I choose what models fit the fluff and I like. So naturally it will be slightly talored to high speed and cbt orientated which is just because its wolves.

I like to not take that unit instead but more along the lines that I must change my tactics not change the army.


Also jsut to clairfy I do nto consider it good sportsmanship to not tell your opponent your army but are just sneakily spying on him playing other games. I mean tailor it sure if you know your opponent and you have faced him with your balanced army as you would both then have the opportunity to tailor each army to each other.

[JoeGuardsman]

Drax tailoring to what you play against all of the time especially when it comes to friends is fine. No one could argue and say you are doing the wrong thing. Anyone who thinks that their play and army style doesn't change to suit their best friend and arch enemy is in denial. I miss my arch enemy but I should battle him soon.

[Drax]

oh you misunderstand me, and i beleive that to be my own fault.

i am not, and would not say it is the wrong thing to do.

However, mart wants to take part in tournaments shortly, and i am trying to drive home the point that if he doesn't start trying to work out a balanced list soon, by the time it gets to the tournament, he won't have had enough time to work an effective and balanced list out.

whereas, krom and myself are trying to find that equilibrium now so that we can tweak it in time.

[Mart007]

But what I have come to realise as this thread continues - if you follow a FOC anyway and as long as you dont max out on units, say 3 FP, or 3 Falcons with 3 squads of Harlies, you have a balanced army list anyway. There is the fluff to consider as well and though I'm tempted to drop a squad of defenders for another squad of Dires - I wont (even though Ulthwe took a beating on this dex). The more lists you try the better feel you get for what works anyway instead of hanging onto one list, and thusly when I come to tornament play I should have more knowledge on an all comers list.

[Drax]

possibly...
maybe next time i will write a list designed to beat you and you only and then you wont get another draw

[Wakim]

I`ll say it again, if you play for fun... make sure you keep it fun

If you play for a prise... well then, make sure you win it

[Mart007]

lol Wakim, we cant just play for fun, we are far to competitive! But we have fun being competitive! lol so yes keep it fun!

[Drax]

lol - don't worry wakim, martin knows as well as i do that our next game will see a victory for him. up til now i have only played CSMs against him, but i am using my sisters now, which although unbloodied against Eldar, are still searching for that elusive victory!

seems though martin, we both want different things out of a battle, would you agree?

[Mart007]

I want a good game, but you know as i do (as you like to keep reminding me of my defeats) a win makes it that extra bit sweeter!

PS, just like to add your are judged on Sportsmanship in tournaments, so over cheesing won't help your cause.

[MarkedByChaos]

I think I see something that would be anathama to my own group of players,

list building like your building for a prolonged campaign. let me explain, it seems alot of people are building a list, whether cheese or not, as if it is the character they are going to play in some long running campaign. which is cool, the fluff and stuff can get really great doing this but, even then things develop. in my group none of us have a "list," as players we have favored units and models but we don't actually sit down and come up with a list to play until about an hour before deployment, and normally we are sitting around a table together talking about it, we even help one another.

we keep fluff primarily around the company, "troop squad x got wiped last game so when I field a new one it is going to be small and not really have any upgrades, its leader is going to be minimal for now, the rest of the military is really hurting for their losses and is geared up and itching for a chance to pay back the favor!" kind of thing. basically we use or codex as our character in a campaign rather than its components.

when your building a list to battle over and over again you have to keep things balanced, flexible and kinda generic (great for tournaments, not for one offs). I am honored when my opponent makes a list designed to beat me.

Question, since most of the posting on this thread is a group of rivals, do you kids talk to help one another? my group sits around and talks about how we could have done better, what hurt us in the fight, what tactics were working for us and that kind of stuff, basically each game is followed with a learning discussion. I am finding it rare at the local shop, people are just showing up fighting and then taking off, often times leaving both players wondering what just happened.

when you play the same people over and over, list tailoring enhances the fluff. My Orks stop bringing Tank Bustas against Nids and start bringing more chopas because the survivors of the first two fights figured it out... why am I bringing so many nobs? Deys da s'vivaz been fiting youz over da last em' 1, 2, 3, 4, eh hm er 5?, 6, da last 6 fites, dey getin better g'enst you