List Tailoring

[Mart007]

i have discussed this on other forums and had a really mixed response. Basically do you think it is OK to list tailor or not?

My view is, it is OK as I think a lot of the skill in the game is in picking up what your opponent has and countering that with your own armoury.

Some people would even call this cheesy because sometimes this would mean maxing out on something. Again I think this is fine. to an extent

Though some people think you should be using a "take on all comers" list which is great for tournament play, but for a normal game I love coming up with a new list that is ready for your opponent the next day.

I dont see how list tailoring gives you an unbalanced army or cheese.

[Drax]

regardless of what you may say mart, my lists are increasingly 'balanced'. i.e. they are not written for a specific opponent rather than i have actually written a balanced list!

the problem is, what works against you, doesn't work against krom (the two people i play the most), and there are times when we either have time for 2 games, or it hasn't been decided who we will face.

when i write a list now, i do consider the role i want a unit to perform, but i don't consider what unit of your's or Krom's it would be best against.

[Mart007]

But I would have two different lists ready... That said sometimes I might go back to an older list pre-made.

[Wakim]

This problem comes about in many games

Building an army with the sole purpose to defeat another army is OK once or twice but after a while you`ll get viewed as a coward and/or jerk.

The thing is it takes a lot of time and effort to set up a 40k game (yeah, i know, nothing new there) and people feel like their wasting their time when they an enemy specially designed to beat them for the 5th time.

Now if this were a card game, things would be less violent since you can easily change a deck of cards and beat the tailor with something he didn`t prepare for, but not so many people will lend you their minis for a game. And even if they do, they won`t have the minis you`re looking for at the moment (murphy`s law).

[Mart007]

I see your point but I disagree. This game is about luck, and there is only so much you can do on the battlefield.

As a General of your army it is part of your job to select troops available to you - and not tell your opponent!

If your General is a worthy opponent they will have though of something to counter you, and if that so happens to be a "balanced list" fine that takes skill also.

But no one can say (if you know who your opponent is) they havent though mmm I'll take a HB instead of that Melta for this game.

[Drax]

oooh, low blow martin! good job your brother isn't around to see you have a jibe at him!

the other thing is martin, that anyone can sit and write a list to counter a particular opponent, but the skill is writing a list that can beat any given opponent!

[Wakim]

Please don`t mistake 'being prepared' with 'making a counter army'.

Of course you have to be prepared, but going "oh, you have no armour? well let me put away 500 points of worth of anti armor weaponry that i wasn`t going to use anyway, i was just checking to see if i`ve got all my models" isn`t going to work too often

[JoeGuardsman]

I'm going to go with the school of thought that there is no right or wrong in this argument. In my opinion if you meet up with someone and decide to tell each other what army you are going to play and then make a list it is fair because you both can tailor. I like balanced armies myself but just because I think they present a better looking army with a wide variety of the troops available.

One thing that is not fair however is if you walk in with a balanced army and your opponent finds out what you have and pulls out a ready made tailor army and tries to hide it from you. Bottom line is either Tailor list vs. Tailor list or Blind List vs. Blind List. All is fair in love and imaginary war.

[Icarus Athrasuriel]

I prefer to write a list each for a game, but without knowing my opponents list. E.g. write a list designed to counter what you think your opponent will use, not what you know he will use.

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Icarus Athrasuriel

I prefer to write a list each for a game, but without knowing my opponents list. E.g. write a list designed to counter what you think your opponent will use, not what you know he will use.

So you mean more like.. You know your facing orks.. so horde set up, etc? Or if facing SM, a few more low AP guns, etc..?

[Drax]

Which in fairness is all mart is meaning too. The amount of models that both krom and I now have, he couldn’t possibly be certain of our exact lists.

But what he means is that he is intentionally gearing his lists to beat what he thinks we will use, rather than trying to build a force that would cope with whatever I threw at him

Just whilst on the subject, I am the only one in our gaming group able to field two different armies (admittedly one isn’t anywhere near painted), however I am not allowed to play unless I state a week in advance which army I will be fielding, what are your thoughts on this?

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Celephus Drax

Just whilst on the subject, I am the only one in our gaming group able to field two different armies (admittedly one isn’t anywhere near painted), however I am not allowed to play unless I state a week in advance which army I will be fielding, what are your thoughts on this?

To me, that's bullocks, b.s., or whatever term you prefer.

[SteveBerenyi]

personally i like taking an army that is fluff oriented. My fluff or GW really does not matter, but in my Eldar army for example, I have lots of armor because it is what they use. if i came up against a horde nids army i would be toasted, but i really dont care. i have a horde nids army (kinda) and in playtest it did kick the eldar's a**'s but i play by my fluff. that is the way i do it.

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by SteveBerenyi

personally i like taking an army that is fluff oriented. My fluff or GW really does not matter, but in my Eldar army for example, I have lots of armor because it is what they use. if i came up against a horde nids army i would be toasted, but i really dont care. i have a horde nids army (kinda) and in playtest it did kick the eldar's a**'s but i play by my fluff. that is the way i do it.

Same. Purely the same. Though, due to my own mind set, most of my armies tend to be balanced. Except when I do SW.

[Drax]

so you think i should have the freedom not to tell them, even though i will know what army they have?

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Celephus Drax

so you think i should have the freedom not to tell them, even though i will know what army they have?

Yeah... It's not your fault that you have two armies, or they don't. Plain as that. Maybe like 'Hey when we meet up tomorrow, i'll be bringing ________ ". But not a week.

[Drax]

well that is my thinking also, however i am the one in the best position to benefit from it.

any one else have an opinion on this? just to pick someone completely at random, mart007, what are your thoughts?

[Mart007]

Though you dont tell us anyway!

We are playing a wargame yes? Well I know for a fact that any army knows the enemy they are fighting and would set up a counter force accordingly to what they believe they are fighting.

I see no argument that makes me think otherwise.

In our last game (which was a goodern!)I placed two Vypers in my army with BrightLances because I guessed you would be using your Defiler, and it worked.
(the game ended in a draw and was one of those nail biting ones incidently)
I dont apologise that I wouldnt normally play them against other armies I tailored that part of my army to counter that.

There is no week thing we were planning a game for the weekend but Drax was claiming he would not specify which army he was using until we put them on the table. Thats how I saw it.

[Drax]

and you said this thread wouldn't ruffle feathers!

i hadn't decided which to use, but i got banned until i decided, so i said which one.

if you didn't tailor, you wouldn't mind

[Mart007]

lol, nothing wrong with a bit of feather ruffling! I didnt ban you, I merely wanted to know what I was facing. and it had got up to the day before not week.

Your making me sound like some kind of control freak!

[JoeGuardsman]

I think in the 40k universe it is more than possible for you to not know the disposition of your opponents troops and armaments. Tyranids can come from no where, Traitor Legions can fall from the sky, Orks can pop out of the warp. Also your supply lines are light years too long for a quick fix. It makes me a fan of themed and balanced armies because they play more into a good looking and hopefully realistic army. Still, in game terms it's all fair as long as we are both playing the same way.

[Mart007]

but you know what army your facing, and you equip yourself accordingly with weaponary and tactics that would work best against them.

[SlavetotheMachine]

Wow, I can see the animosity this type of discussion breeds.

However, it is a game. And we can all claim that some armies will "scout" the opponent so we should be able to tailor a list, and others will say that their sentries were uber enough to take out your scouts so you shouldn't tailor, blah, blah, blah.....

There are times when tailoring adds a great deal to the game and there are times when it takes away. Someone had mentioned earlier that Tailored vs. Tailored or Blind List vs. Blind List is the best way to go, and I would have to agree with that.

If your buddies are consistently tailoring their lists against you, it starts to wear on your nerves, to be sure. I remember playing my Necrons against my small group of friends, I never once saw anyone use a Rhino, Vindicator, Chimera, Devilfish, nothing. I had thought that was normal until I went to a tourney. Much twisted and charred metal was left in my wake!!! Constantly playing at a "disadvantage" really helped me against the "take-all-comers" style of play. After that, I suggested to my friends that they use a more normal list, rather than a list tailored to beat Necrons and I started a Chaos army. Now, we have a games night and we know who our opponents will be, but not the army because everyone now has more than 1 army and more than 1 build of the armies they have.

Patience, grasshopper, tailor but not too much. Everything gets boring when you do it too often.....

[Drax]

Originally Posted by Mart007

lol, nothing wrong with a bit of feather ruffling! I didnt ban you, I merely wanted to know what I was facing. and it had got up to the day before not week.

Your making me sound like some kind of control freak!

roflmao - i was banned, by you, until i disclosed the army i would use, against you. and then when i did, you considered maintaining the ban as you didn't have much time to tailor a list.

And that is why list tailoring is wrong!

and that why i tell you these days

EDIT: didn't intend to make it come accross that you accused me of lying, so have removed that sentence.

[Mart007]

I tailor blind, but to me it is an aspect of the game I thouroughly enjoy, and Drax did at one point! Just to make a point I'm not cheesing out either and I stay fluffy to Ulthwe.

- not saying your lying , just exaggerating to make the point, but meh