US army > imperial guard?

[Dan296]

while i was watching a show called 'future weapons' i noticed something. alot of the developing wepons and existing weapons are alot better then the imperial guard! for example, they showed this self=propelled feild howitzer that was self loading. all machine. it was a 1 man operation, just to select a target. it could fire a 100 lb round every 10 seconds. much better then a basilisk!
and the Abrams tank could destroy a leman russ (witout lascannons that is)
an average grunt has alot better equipment than an average meat-sheild.
m16=better then a flashlight. not to mention better morale =P

[Cagarner]

Yea, but they may have had better weapons during the dark age of technology, but the knowlage was lost. This why the Adeptus Mechanicus wish to retain this information from that time.

[Gnr. Keil]

Saw the same show. Thats where i got my insperation for my thread in the rules development section auto loaders.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Keep in mind that we do not pruduce billions of M1 Abrams...s and have far less then however many uncounted trillions of guardmen there are, so to equip them all would be a nightmare for us, too. Our troops are probably equivalent to Storm Troopers and Kasrkin.

[MSguardsmen]

i wouldnt say kasrkrin exactly seeing as how they are the best of the best when it comes to terrans in the future. i would say the average guardsmen is comparable to a US Marine or any equivilant in training that is.

Equipment however is different the lasgun is far stronger than any hand held personel weapon we have also cheaper.

im not sure about the frag shirt that might be a little bit better than our body armour we use today.

also please dont compare our miserable technology to the stuff they have in 40k

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

This is also true, MSguardsmen. We really can't compare tech. We don't know how strong our own stuff is. An M4 might be S2!

[MSguardsmen]

exactly i dont really see any plasma technology or power suits (yet) being used. also even though alot of people may want to say that 40k tech is horrible please remember they are 40,000 years or more ahead of us. so while your playing your ps3 they are playing the ps5k right now if sony still existed in the future

[experiment 626]

well, the thing to keep in mind about guard tech is;
a) the state of the imperium!
b) it's all mass produced!

in the current imperium, technology is viewed much differently than we look at it now... noone in the imperium likes the idea of inteligent machines because of what happened during the age of strife! (anyone remember the iron men?!)
also, up-keep and maintanince has become very ritualised and is persided over by the tech adepts of mars. this means that there is sometimes a lack of proper attention and certain things won't get fixed up properly.

also remember too that almost all stc knowledge has been lost so it's literally impossible for the imperium to create new technology! unless they find another surviving stc, or part of one, there's little the tech priests can do to make current arms stronger.

and unlike today - all arms and armour destined for the imperial guard is mass produced on an unimaginable scale! billions of tonnes of ordanince and munitions and millions of tanks and other weapons being forged each and every day!
basically, the guard is never short on guns and bullets... (or bodies either!) whereas today, we really have to think before deploying the more precise heavy ordinance because it costs a feth of alot of money!!! (you really expect anyone to sanction mass use of a rocket that costs about 250,000$ a pop?!)
the imperium has streemlined costs - all they need are the material to make the stuff!

cheers!

[Stubber]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Rosenadel

An M4 might be S2!

A lasgun can blow a mans leg off at the thigh according to some of the fluff I've read.
A las beam clean to the chest will most certainly kill a normal human.

The 5.56mm ammo used by NATO and the USMC is specificly used so as not to kill most enemy combatants. Their theory is that an injured man will be cared for by other soilders, effectivly taking 3 or more men out of the battle.

In the 41st millenium cultists won't care if their cult buddy gets blows to bits next to them so a 'One Hit-One Kill' approach is used.

[Brother_Ambrose]

"Abrams tank could destroy a leman russ"

How do you know an Abrams could penetrate the armour? we don't know what alloys the tanks of the future are made of.

[Stubber]

Well if a .75 calibur, mass reactive, depleated Uranium shell from a bolt gun can glance the back of a leman russ then the Depleated Uranium, fin-stabalised kinetic penetrator that the Abrams has could easily punch a hole in the side and with a luckey shot it could crack the engine in two or detonate the ammo and fuel.

I know way too much about this stuff.

[Killermoose]

Backing away from the weird guy and his knowledge of Abrams battle tanks... I was with you till the 'fin-stabalised kinetic penetrator' thing though...

[Stubber]

Fin stabalised: It has aerodynamic fins on the back of the projectile which uses air resistance to keep the pointy end facing forward.

Kinetic energy penetrator: Kinetic enery is proportional to the momentum of the projectile. momentum= velocity x mass.
Depleated Uranium has a mass about 13 times that of lead and the tank cannons can only fire the projectile so fast without blowing themselves up.

So very heavy, pointy thing going very fast means armour doesn't work so well. The hole it would make would only be about the size of a golf ball though.

[Killermoose]

Ok, the 'very heavy, pointy thing' cleared it up for me. Seriously, I thought I was nerdy about Nuclear power, you've taken weirdness to a whole new level...

[Gnr. Keil]

I don't think a Lemun Russ tank even have reactive armor like the Abramns does. Reactive armor literatly explodes when a projetctile hits it hopeing to detonate or reflect the shot before it hits the tanks normal armor. That would be interesting upgrade for a tank in the 40k relm.

[MSguardsmen]

i remember i got in an arguement with a protestor about depleted uranium. she was arguing that Bush was using radioactive materials (her exact words where that bush was using depleted uranium to attack innocent iraqies) she even had pictures of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Im in my suit because heck im in DC and theres a 1/100 chance of seeing someone very important and also the chance that i can slap one of the mississippi represenatives in the house or senate. (not raise my pay to 7.25 an hour my arse). anyway back on track i interupted her and told the people that depleted uranium had no radioctive materials what so ever and was completely safe unless it was flying at you. i then told them that all it did was make the ammunition heavier. the protester got angry and began calling me ignorant ignorant ignorant. it was funny how even the smallest bit of the truth can turn a protester into a fool.

while yes the abrams does use depleted uranium whos to say the leman russ doesnt use some material thats heavier. The facts are is that we only know the Leman Russ tank what we dont know are the insides, elements/ alloys used to make it, or its true statistics

[Stubber]

Well the fact that Leman Russ make blasts means they rely on the older High Explosive rounds. Then again there is rules in IA1 for special tank killer shells.

depleted uranium had no radioctive materials what so ever and was completely safe unless it was flying at you.

Well if you surgicaly planted it up your *&%* it would eventually cause some radiation damage.
(Placing arse in that sentence would have made this post highly insulting. )

[Spartan2154]

Depleted uranium has of course a mild, yet still present count of radioactivity, limited exposure is okay; Example: you suffer a hit that penetrates the hull of the tank, you should'nt really stay around to "look" at the hole but behind the several layers of other things that compose the armor of the vehicle of course its perfectly safe.

[IVSothicIV]

A guardsman doesn't even come close to the level of training an average marine gets. A guardsman is about as trained as a WWII soldier from ANY country. There, discussed enough.

[Plisken]

Yah, The us army gives there troops nightvision.AND ARMOUR.

[IVSothicIV]

Originally Posted by Plisken

Yah, The us army gives there troops nightvision.AND ARMOUR.

What, you guys don't?

[rintinglen]

A thingy about the Leman Russ. Have you noticed all the nice flat surfaces to catch the points of those "Super Heavy Pointy Things" And all the rivets holding it together? There's a reason why there are few old Guardsmen.
You also have some pretty nifty shell traps under and around the weapons mounted on the body and sponsons. It reminds me of the Char Bis or Grant/Lee tanks of WWII. The ones that were out-dated by 1943.
All things being equal, I think I'd rather be in an M1A1 Abrams anyday.

[Stubber]

M1A2 Abrams with full urban survival kit. You never have to even stick your head out of the hatch and it's the hardest tank to kill in existance.

I still think it isn't that good without sponsons though.

[Killermoose]

Or the fact that it doesn't hover 5 feet off the floor.

[Dan296]

lol nice moose
maybe the US got the abrams from an STC design....hmmm.....

[CHIAPETOFDOOM]

Sooo while were on the topic of armored fighting, US vs the Imperium I suppose...

What happens when a baneblade rolls over the hill and says "Hiya fellas" to a few Abrams? Now I'm not saying we couldn't destroy a baneblade eventually with our technology. But the Imperium probobly has more than one.

My friend Squat Comando and I were discussing the small arms ideas earlier also. Would agree that a standard issue lasgun is definitly more lethal than most any assault rifle I can think of today. So we were assuming an average assault rifle, would produce a str2 damage.

I recall seeing clips of 50cal DU rounds being used in WW2 and they can rip apart concrete. This would definitly do a number on someones flesh! But then again thats a 50. cal DU...IG is using 75. cal DU rounds in their machine guns. So they have us beat in "machine guns" too.

Now the way I see it we may be outmatched in firepower, but we still have some tricks up our sleeves in the ways of technology. More commonly used Nightvision equipment (also prementioned) and rangefinders and a few other things. We have alot of gear that the normal gaurdsmen doesn't. However in the end they would most likely solidly outnumber us and with a near, if not fairly equal level of training, be able to take us down despite the situation.

It should also be noted that much of our gear is reliant on satellite data and an imperial fleet would probobly have little trouble blowing them up...

I dunno, just my random thoughts.

I think there would be a tremendous drop in morale for some of the civilian population in the states. The quantity of casualities would be devestating. In WW2 the casualties were horrendous at times, but nowadays I suppose there are some folks that think we can fight a war without being shot or killed every once in awile. Well its war and people die. If we fought the IG I think there would be a large portion of the population that would find themselves in utter disbelief at the loss of life, they wouldn't know what to do, and would probobly at some point even descend into panic. When the IG is there, its going to get messy . The Imperium is used to this. They have a blunt, efficient way of doing things. They are the hammer of the Emperor and they will send man after man into hell itself to die gloriously in a hail of fire until the Emperor's enemies are smited. Sometimes their morale breaks too, but they just regroup or execute a few cowards. Less of a civilian crutch too, they use propoganda. Just different ways of thinking...

*Tried not to get into politics, just bringing up the morale issue of our civilization, vs theirs. Don't send gribblies after me!