What is it about "Complex Tactical Wargame" Has GW failed to grasp?

[TheKiller333]

While after my recent not so recent jibe at game store kids i decided that the heart of my irrationable anger is GW's failure to understand that the miniature industry is generally aimed at the intelligent among us - us - and not the people that have yet to learn how to tie their own shoelaces.

Think about it. Those of you that have ever played 2nd Ed or perhaps even a specialist game like Necromunda or Gorkamorka, will understand what i'm getting at here. The general intelligence of the latest games i have played have come down to me waving my arms in the air in amusement when my opponent comes up with some sort of ingenius "Charge at the Chaos Space Marines at hope all goes well, especially with those Termies at the front" tactic. And then we come down to the rules themselves which seem to allow this tactic to work functionally. This is tactical warfare? No. It isn't. It's dribbling vegetables throwing countless amounts of mass particles at each other's models and hoping that they have miles of fun in the process.

And whatever happened to the deep, dark knowledge of fluff that most veterans hold? I don't claim to be an expert but God, i know what the hell a squig is. Most of the newest gamers decide that they like the look of a race, and it's models and subsequently spend mountains of money only to find out that the race they picked turn out to be a pile of ********** elves. (See Eldar)

Come on people, and join my crusade to purge this universe of idiotic gamers and we will reign supreme over the entire GW world.

Get your red hot torches! Get your red hot torches!

Thanks for reading

Chris - TheKiller333

[TheKiller333]

My edit button is currently being nasty so apologies on this rude double post, but i must add:

"Sorry to any Eldar players that may be offended by the above."

=p

[SteveBerenyi]

apology accepted on the eldar part killer,

other than that nice rant!

[experiment 626]

well, i look at the need to simplify the core rules for the younger generation as proof that humanity is indeed devolving... (or at least that each new generation is proving itself stupider than the last!)

my observations and theories however must be confined to the dark and shadowy cornners of society as they conflict with the new law of 'political correctness' so as not to offend the small percentage of highly insecure fools who prove me right!

cheers!

[Mart007]

********** elves

Finds Avatar sword and cracks Killer across the chops.

I can see what your saying, but a game can be made more complex with more scenery (makes a big difference to charging men in the open). I happen to like this edition of the rules (I have been playing since RT) as it has got rid of a lot of the clutter.

I have very little to with gaming in store so the irritations your facing are not really an issue to me. But you have got to remember kids are excitable and do get right into there chosen army and if they lose with them then the may get easily disapointed.

The game is what you make it, added missions, Cities of Death and now Appoc - I think the game is looking great at the mo. I think the slump was 3rd ed.

And remember, these kids playing Wallet Hammer keep GW going, all the better cos they bring more stuff out etc. I just game with with friends and stay well away from the store as much as pos!

[TheKiller333]

Originally Posted by experiment 626

(or at least that each new generation is proving itself stupider than the last!)!

Entirely true and i am so annoyed with my fellow dribbling vegetable generation that i am considering going on a massive killing spree to prove a simple point "Pay attention in lessons you idiotic football droolers"

[Battle-Ranch]

i like blinding Charging stuff,
*rightous zeals mart cause he's closest*

[Nanolathe]

I've always been amazed at how GW is able to alienate the previous generation of gamers while trying to pander to the next.

Kudos GW.

Bets on how simple 5th Ed. will be?

(new face, as you might have noticed. Blame Killer333. He told me about this place)

[experiment 626]

actually alot of the new concepts from the apocalypse expansion will be worked to fit into the next 40k edition...

so it looks like 5th edition might be a wee bit more tactical than 3rd or 4th edition!

cheers!

[Mart007]

I fail to see how 4th ed is less tactical? Can someone enlighten me?

[Killermoose]

Hey, the Eldar aren't **********s!

I agree with you though, Killer, but I guess there's not much we can do... we can only pray that nothing get's worse!

[Mart007]

Well if everyone thinks this game is soooo bad then why are we here? Stitch, do you really think 4th ed is that bad?

[TheKiller333]

Because the more intelligent folk here still play private games of 2nd-3rd ed between each other to ease our sanity =p

[SteveBerenyi]

personally i dont think it is "Bad" but far less tactical than 2nd Edition.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Mart007

Well if everyone thinks this game is soooo bad then why are we here? Stitch, do you really think 4th ed is that bad?

the game itself is great - the majority of the newer gamers are idiots while many veterans are simply becoming lazy, hence the reason for excessive power gaming...
4th edition is quite a tactical game! but only as long as the player sare willign to play something other than 'alpha level clense'...

that's why at the local GW store, i'm going to be dictating to players from now on the missions they fight. no more of this nonsensicle 'whoever kills the most wins' crap! nope, who can say "cities of death w/3 stratgems & escalation" with me?!!

cheers!

[Battle-Ranch]

"cities of death w/3 stratgems & escalation!" Not to sound like one of those idiot new gamers but whats Power gaming?

[Dan296]

well my tanks, jetbikes, and vypers do have flames up the front so my eldar really are flaming...(damnit)

but on the contrary, i think its very tactical. note:eldar. most tactical ones out there. if you do a blind charge with eldar you are going down. if you blind charge me using any army you are going down. its just not going to work.

with my eldar, if you are doing a blind thrust, im going to surround, isolate, and exterminate your army.
true, many armies can sometimes with with this tactic, such as necrons, marines (both kinds), and tyranids. however, if you go against a veteran player theyre goign to lose.
true, many of the rules have been simplified, but isnt that for the best? does it really take away from the overall game? it just makes it easier to play so the games go smoother and quicker. quicker is almost always better

[Mart007]

Because the more intelligent folk here still play private games of 2nd-3rd ed between each other to ease our sanity =p

So you prefer playing "Hero Hammer" and 3rd ed with the most un thought out dex's we have ever seen.

2nd ed was simplified to allow more tactical play because you got bogged down with a rule everytime you ****ed.

More rules does not mean more tactical, in fact the opposite, simplyfied rules give you a much more flowing game with out the frustration. More complex rules puts young players off and makes rules lawyers own the game, (more offensive than excitable newbs IMO)

As for powergaming in 4th, we have never seen more balanced dex's and yes there's the odd glitch (Ksons!) but really they have put a lot of thought into them.

Appoc is made for vets as you can use thousand pound armies and with the rules makes for a cracking game!

It's easy to jump on the GW bashing wagon, but in the last few years I have seen nothing but improvement.

I actually think when V5 comes out it's going to be the best version to date and if as Stitch says is going to use stuff fromm expansions, GREAT!

Believe me 'I'm old' kids have just as shorter attention span as they did in Rogue Trader, it's just that they have more chance of undersatnding these rules, which is great.! Because as Vets we can make the game as tactical as we can or want!

[Torquemada Coteaz]

Nice rant Killer, and I couldn't agree more

*Yay a crusade!*

Add.Note: I hate 10 year olds who tell their parents to spend hundreds of dollars to get them a warhound, which is then badly assembled (and mostly done by parents) and taken to the field badly/un painted, and used INCORRECTLY, resulting in its lost less than half way through a game, having incurred minimal casualties on enemies, and ends up losing the game later.
AND THEN HE BLAMES HIS OPPONENT FOR BEING MEAN/CHEATING!

argh. STAY AWAY FROM TITANS YER NUBZ

[Mart007]

Seriously what is wrong with you guy's!! kids get excited and I find them frustrating, but they have zero effect on my hobby! I dont play in store!!!

Simple as. No frustration.

There actually nothing worse than snotty vets who snubs anyone getting into the hobby!

[Torquemada Coteaz]

Well here's the thing.
1) I love the stores. Why? The stores also have something called "REAL VETS" i.e. at least half of the redshirts.
2) No, there's nothing worse than an "random annoying gamestore kid" coming to VETERANS NIGHT, and being far more "snotty" than you say vets are, IN ADDITION TO being 10x their regular annoying-ness.

Oh... the complaining and the CRAP that come out of their pieholes...

Note: We aren't saying ALL young/new players suck, or even most of them , but seriously a large chunk of them do.

[Mart007]

Me neither, not all Vets are snotty, and some kids are well behaved, etc, etc....

It just narks me when people say with whichever rule set, the current one has gone 2 the dogs, and the last one was the best.

2nd ed was actually bad, it was far to complicated and 3rd had more holes than swiss cheese.

I remember being a kid (well behaved of course) back in RT kids were just as irritating even at when I was the same age. The more more complcated rules actually made them worse because they had zero grasp on the game.

At least now they can understand the basics better and get less frustrated and a little less obnoxius (spelling?!)

[Torquemada Coteaz]

Hmm... 2nd was a little complicated,
but to be fair i loved the template style things that used to grow or move around the table via scatter, but are in effect vortex grenades. (with bigger size effect IIRC?)

[Mart007]

Actually, I liked the varied templates as well, thats one thing I wouldn't mind coming back.

[kenshin620]

well since I got into the hobby 2 mounths ago can anyone fill me in on the old days of 2ed and ect?