thousand sons

[knight-of-nurgle]

hi i was wondering what are the advantages and disadvantes of having a chaos marine army dedecated to Tzeentch because i might be thinking of getting some

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by knight-of-nurgle

hi i was wondering what are the advantages and disadvantes of having a chaos marine army dedecated to Tzeentch because i might be thinking of getting some

well, actual thousand sons squad are jolly expensive pts-wise, but they're one of the best - if not the best anti-space marine troops in the chaos codex!
hard to kill with their nice invulnerable save, ap3 bolters combined with 'slow and purposeful' gives them a big reach, and their sorcerer champions come with pointy death sticks & a choice of nifty psychic powers!

as for tzeentch-dedicated squads;
- termies become godly with a 4+ invulnerable save! again, an expensive unit as the icon isn't cheap, but they're damn hard to knock down with that 2+/4+ save.

- havocs are alot harder to shift... again, you don't need to rely on cover nearly as much. (which will be a HUGE! asset come 5th edition!) combined with many of their long ranged weapons, it can take quite a bit of effort for any opponent to deal with them unless they commit elites units like deep strikers who can get in close and pump out lots of shots!

- sorcerers with the mark of tzeentch gain more psychic powers + they can also make upto 2 psychic tests/turn! so that means powers like warptime become increadably deadly as you can also use that shiny, pointy death stick too!


basically, while all your squads will become ungodly pts-heavy, your army will be fairly resilient as most of it will have a good invulnerable save!
again, it's a real toss-up as to which chaos army has the better staying power; the T5 of nurgle, or the invulnerable saves of tzeentch? against alot of basic arms like lasguns, bolters or pulse rifles, nurgle wins out as you won't take nearly as many wounding hits... but, against most armies that have been designed to kill space marines, the tzeentch army can take alot of that punishment that would maim even plague marines and still keep coming!

cheers!

[IronWarriorofChaos]

the thousand sons are sorcerers. the advantage is they fire inferno bolts, which basicly kills regulars, the AP is 3 instead of the normal 5. the disadvantge if there sorcerer dies the slow down, alot.

[Sir_Servo]

Love Tzeentch. I just took 2nd place at a local tourny with them. Stitch there covered most of it. I love my DP with Warptime and Wind of Chaos. 5 Attacks on the charge re-rolling hits and wounds, and it is a Monstrous Creature! so Yummy.

Not to mention the Deamonic Steed for Tzeentch gives you +1 attack so if you throw a sorcerer Lord on one he gets a decent amount of attacks with a force weapon (or pointy stick as Stitch so lovingly calls them).

If any other specific questions pop up, go ahead and ask.

Servo

[Drax]

bear in mind that with the Thousand Sons squad, whilst they excel at killing marines in short range fire fights, if they get into combat, that could be their downfall - with only 1 attack whether they charge or receive (other than the Sorceror), it is liekely that a marine squad is going to wipe you out before you wipe them out - and the ksons will just sit there and take it rather than run away!

[Prince of the Night]

I agree with Drax on this one. The T-sons are a great fire based unit, so should be well supported at all times. As soon as your enemy aproacheth, they are toasteth. The points cost for a unit of 9 is rather high and will normally be out #ed. Although the AP 3 inferno bolts are great for marines and the aspects, most standard units in all other races could care less about AP 3 as the armour saves are usually 5 or 6. "Dark eldar, eldar guadians, fire warriors, orks, nids, etc."

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Prince of the Night

Although the AP 3 inferno bolts are great for marines and the aspects, most standard units in all other races could care less about AP 3 as the armour saves are usually 5 or 6. "Dark eldar, eldar guadians, fire warriors, orks, nids, etc."

well, the likes of fire warriors, 'nid warriors, ork nobs, 'ard boyz, storm troopers/grenadiers, carapaced guard and other 4+ save will care about your ap3 bolters as they are still losing out quite badly!
typically, you will also kill most of these units on 3's too, so always make sure you bring some close combat support for your thousand sons squads!

cheers!

[BrainDeleted]

Unless I miss read the rules, Slow & Purposeful means that the sons can always fire their bolters at 24" and move which definately gives them an edge against other units.

[Drax]

that is correct, however since they move d6" they don't necessarily move quick enough!

[Sir_Servo]

Originally Posted by Drax

that is correct, however since they move d6" they don't necessarily move quick enough!

That is why you buy them a rhino!

Any ways, my list breaks down to 2 squads of Lessar Deamons, a DP, Sorcerer Lord (surprisingly good in Combat! ), and raptors for support. Raptors by themsleves are quite fragile, esspecially if you only take them in squads of 5 like I do, but they are definately the answer to giving you a little support to your 1k Sons in close combat.

My two cents,
Servo

[Drax]

lol - i was thinking more along the lines of keeping out of charge range at close quarters, but yeah, i agree - take a rhino

[paladin777]

Hi, I'm new here, I just joined yesterday, and this is my first post. Anyway, I've been playing thousand sons for four years now, I'm personally a big fan of keeping my ksons generally out of range, and trying to back up into some cover so the people persuing also have to take terrain rolls, then start rolling up and if I'm lucky, I let loose a torrent of AP3 shots that kill most anything, and follow up with a charge on the couple of models left with 4 hidden force weapon attacks. it works very well, and will work much better with the
5th-ed rules as slow and purposeful get the extra attack on the charge.

this may be a little off topic, but I also enjoy running a demon prince with wings, warptime and wind of chaos. He jumps around from cover to cover out of line of sight, and when the time is right, he jumps out having cast warptime and sprays a wind of chaos on a squad, rerolling any failed to wound killing effectively 75% of what's under the template, and charges into what's next, typically they die.

[Prince of the Night]

Just curious, but how do you follow up with a charge using your Ksons if they fire there bolters. Even though they are slow and purposeful, they still can't charge when firing a rapid fire weapon. No one can.

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

Is it at this point that we either

a) ban any and all charging by Thousand Sons Space Marines

or

b) claim Chaos did it.

[paladin777]

I don't know about fifth ed, but I have been allowed to charge with ksons against a good number of GW employees including store managers on challenge the staff day during 4th ed. (thus far my ksons are undefeated on those days, it took a 2 monolith cron' army in a tourney to finally defeat my ksons with the new codex after about 10 games, with one tie.) plus terminators can rapid fire and charge as well, they are known as stable firing platforms.

[Prince of the Night]

That is really cool that you can do that with the GW staff, but as the rules state that when firing a "rapid fire weapon", the unit that fired may not charge that turn. You either move and shoot twice at 12" or stay stationary and fire once at the weapons max distance, " bolter 24", pulse rifle 30". That is the way it has been for 4th edition and as well in the new fifth edition. By all means if the staff where you play let you do that then keep doing it. Hell I wish I could get away with that with my Dark Eldar warriors, they would be unstoppable.

I am not trying to be nasty, I am just stating the rules as they were intended.

[paladin777]

thousand sons are just different from DE warriors because of their slow and purposeful ruling, it's kinda like chaos terminators charging after rapid-firing combi-bolters. I believe both are an exception to that rule as written

[Prince of the Night]

Ksons are not different than DE warriors, because they both carry rapid fire weapons.

Slow and purposeful always makes them stationary for firing abilities which means if they move and are within 24" but greater than 12" away they can still reach there intended target because they do not count as moving.

Slow and purposeful also negates an extra attack when charging, but in the case of firing rapid fire weapons, they may not charge at all.

As far as termies go they may fire there combi-bolters and still charge because the combi-bolter or storm -bolter is classified as an assault weapon. They do not carry the equivalent of a boltgun.

[paladin777]

actually chaos terminators carry twin-linked bolters which are in fact rapid fire weapons. we don't have storm bolters, that's a loyalist thing.

[Prince of the Night]

Point taken on the chaos termies. The termies can fire and assault, but the Ksons could not. The termies armour enables them to do that. Good catch.

[Biadetic]

So basically from this, the OP has been playing it wrong int he idea that he can charge with his 1k sons after rapid firing? and if staff have let him then theyre either letting him away with it or just got it wrong :S ?

Cheers ^_^

[Kharne]

In 5th ed, Slow and purposeful units have the Relentless rule, and it says, "Relentless models can shoot with rapid fire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the same turn they fire them"

Point in case, at least in 5th ed, Thousand Sons can Rapid-Fire and Assault.

[Petey1016]

He can charge after rapid firing with 1ksons, Slow and purposeful units also have the relentless special rule and i quote from page 76 of the 5th ed rulebook.

Relentless models can shoot with rapidfire and heavy weapons counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase, and are also allowed to assault in the same turn they fire them

Its all on page 76 if you want to see with your own eyes and it says nothing about losing the +1 to charge in either entries.

-Petey

EDIT: too slow someone beat me to it

[Prince of the Night]

If that is what it says, than that is what it says. In 4th ed you could not do that. I still have a hard time believing that a model that is considered stationary to fire a heavy weapon and or double tap his rapid fire weapon, can still charge on the same turn. If this really is the case, than it proves my point that the "game" is broken.

[Imperial Commander Gent]

They were allowed to rapid fire and assault in 4th edition! The wording on the assault rules and slow and purposeful allowed for models to assault after rapid firing! Bikes, Ksons and chaos termies were all legal chargers after rapid firing! But they would not get that bonus attack!

[Biadetic]

Hai Gent

So how does this wrk in 5th ed then? I have be side-tracked from GW as of late and have yet to lay eyes upon 5th ed ^_^