The Swooping hawks of... cheese?

[vinny]

Where do you see that skyleep is not a move? It says skyleep happens in the move phase and you loose this phase when you deep strike.

[Dan296]

yea seriously. if you deepstrike then you cant move, so that means that (since skyleap happens in the moving phase, thus is a movement) then you cant deepstrike then skyleap. i would ask a redshirt about this. if you can DS then skyleap, wow. SUPA CHEESE!

[MarksmanCypher]

Originally Posted by Dan296

yea seriously. if you deepstrike then you cant move, so that means that (since skyleap happens in the moving phase, thus is a movement) then you cant deepstrike then skyleap. i would ask a redshirt about this. if you can DS then skyleap, wow. SUPA CHEESE!

Asking redshirts won't get you anywhere. There have been several cases of people calling Roolzboyz and getting conflicting responses - some say it can't be done, other's say it was the designer's intent for it to work!

This tactic (coined as "Rubber Hawking") has been argued back and forth on Warseer.

I'm of the opinion that Rubber Hawking (deep strike, skyleap) is a perfectly legal tactic. I'm not necessarily happy with it being legal, but I'm willing to accept that it can be done.

I've made a strong argument on Warseer and I'll post it here.

OK, the other thread was locked by the Warseer Inquisition, and we were directed over here.

1. At no point does it mention in the Skyleap description that Skyleap is done instead of moving. It says that the player may elect to remove a unit with Skyleap from the table in its movement phase, placing it in reserve.

2. The argument has been put forth that once the Swooping Hawks [henceforth: Hawks] have Deep Striked (Deep Struck?) the Hawks' movement phase is over. Upon closer look, Deep Striking occurs at the beginning of the turn and not in the movement phase. It can therefore be ruled that the Hawks still have a movement phase.

3. Deep Strike rules state that a model may not move or assault and counts as having moved for the purposes of shooting. What one must realise, however, is that Skyleap is not an instead of moving action, it is an in the movement phase action.

We can therefore conclude that Rubber Hawking, whilst not particularly fun or sporting, is a legal manouvre. I'm not defending the Rubber Hawk technique because I intend on using it, rather, I'm against using it, but I am defending it because it is the right thing to do, rather than whinge and claim that something shouldn't be.

[Chapin Ketra]

the thing i find odd is the rules state that all reserves must enter play as soon as they are able .

now with the hawks they can get round this rule .
take and hold for instance ,an eldar player can jump in and out every turn and on the last turn deepstrike straight to the target and if its the last turn you cant do a thing so yes i my sound like i am moaning but come ,on jumping in and out every turn is the same as holding back reserves till you choose to play them which the rules say you cant
or is it just be being a moaner

[MarksmanCypher]

Just being a moaner

You see, jumping in and out is different from withholding.

If you jump in and get straight out of a pool, you aren't withholding, although you aren't in the pool anymore.

With Swooping Hawks and the Rubber Hawking technique, you do it like this:

1. Roll for reserves. If they are available, proceed to step 2. If they are not, proceed to step 6

2. Commit to a point where the Swooping Hawks will attempt to land.

3. Drop the grenade pack, resolve hits and wounds.

4. Roll scatter for the landing of the Swooping hawks.

5. If any swooping hawks remain, Skyleap.

6. Await till next turn and return to step 1.

As you can see, you still have to place the swooping hawks. They aren't invincible - if you spread out your forces enough, they might land on a squad, or impassable terrain, or one of their own squads, and lose models or even the entire squad.

If you do the Rubber Hawk technique, sure, they might not be able to shoot you. But you might land on top of something that will destroy. Worth the risk?

[vinny]

Sorry but the main rule book clearly states that you are not alowed to (move) after deep striking. Just the same as Fleet of foot this is not done in the (movement phase) but you canot use Fleet when you have deep striked as yo are (moving). I dont think that Marksmancypher and I will ever agree on this point but if we face one another at a Champs I think we will have to do a dice off.

[MarksmanCypher]

Well the evidence points towards Rubber Hawking being legal. Skyleap is not specifically forbidden by the Deep Strike rules, and it doesn't deny usage when you deep strike. It says "In the movement phase" which does not necessarily constitute moving, similar to a Chaos dreadnought rolling for Fire Frenzy doesn't constitute as its movement.

[Dan296]

ye no what? screw it. i dont care if its legal or not, i will personally hack to tiny bits eldar players who do it! in a game of course. its cheese, and if they have 3 units of whatever the max amount is for them doing it every turn, then i will point my frothing warriors at the battle lines and say 'geet em!.' ill say it too. just you wait.
cypher makes good points, and it seems that it is legal.
lets file this in the smurf cheese cannon army and the SIFGAH army and get back at the cheesy players who use it by beating them into a pulp. in a game of course

[hairyyahoo]

check this out

http://uk.games-workshop.com/eldar/tactics-autarchs/1/

seems to imply that gw are backing the rubber hawk ploy whole heartedly as a legal and legit tactic. although i can't imagine why this guy thinks that he can also fire the las blasters every turn they bounce.

[MarksmanCypher]

Originally Posted by Dan296

ye no what? screw it. i dont care if its legal or not, i will personally hack to tiny bits eldar players who do it! in a game of course. its cheese, and if they have 3 units of whatever the max amount is for them doing it every turn, then i will point my frothing warriors at the battle lines and say 'geet em!.' ill say it too. just you wait.
cypher makes good points, and it seems that it is legal.
lets file this in the smurf cheese cannon army and the SIFGAH army and get back at the cheesy players who use it by beating them into a pulp. in a game of course

Keep in mind that there's also many risks associated with "Rubber Hawking".

For starters, it gives you five possible chances for bad scatter. And chances are you WILL get it. And when it happens, you lose that unit.

Secondly, if you keep them until turn 6... "First unit... one. Second unit... one. Third unit... one."

Oh dear, what's that? All three units fail to turn up and count as destroyed for victory point purposes?

[Dan296]

and if im using my nids, my entire side will be paceked with tons of little 'uns. landing in a pool of rippers=not good for your health. hooray for taking up space!
on that note, thats why you always take a teleport homer with terminators. losing a 200-300 point unit to a bad scatter is never good.

[MarksmanCypher]

I know - and that's one of the risks in "rubber hawking", making it balanced.

Against MEQ armies - less damage from the grenade pack, but less models to scatter on to.

Against TEQ armies - moderate damage from the grenade pack, moderate amount of models to land on to

Against GEQ - Lots of models to land on. Lots of damage from Grenade pack.

It's all balanced/

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by MarksmanCypher

I know - and that's one of the risks in "rubber hawking", making it balanced.

Against MEQ armies - less damage from the grenade pack, but less models to scatter on to.

Against TEQ armies - moderate damage from the grenade pack, moderate amount of models to land on to

Against GEQ - Lots of models to land on. Lots of damage from Grenade pack.

It's all balanced/

'ang on. i'm a bit lost now...

MEQ = Marine EQuivilent

TEQ = ? Tyranid/Tua EQuivilent ?

GEQ = ? Guard EQuivilent ?

[MarksmanCypher]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

'ang on. i'm a bit lost now...

MEQ = Marine EQuivilent

TEQ = ? Tyranid/Tua EQuivilent ?

GEQ = ? Guard EQuivilent ?

Yep, MEQ is Marine equivalent.

TEQ is Tau equivalent

GEQ is guard equivalent.

Different armies fit in different areas, though - Eldar can be TEQ if they take lots of Aspects, GEQ if they take Guardians.

tyranids can be GEQ if they take gaunts, TEQ if they take Stealers with Carapace.

[Dan296]

well the swooping hawks are out now