Advice for shooting armies!

[Brother_Ambrose]

I've been playing a shhoting army (Dark Angels) for a few months now and wanted to compile some of the information I've learned about playing with large numbers of long ranged weapons.

Build your squads properly. For Marines, this means no devestators. Use Tacticals. Use even numbers, as theyre harder to score on. Use tactical squads over devestators, with a heavy weapon in each. I like to use a six man squad with a veteran segeant, a flamer, a heavy bolter, and 3 normal marines. These seem to be effective, epseacially since oinly one of my six normal opponents (Chaos) ever gets an armour save against the HB. This set up is also nice for Cities of Death. Taken many of these little squads. They maximize the number of heavy weapons, and they allow you to take off normal marines with bolters for casualties. If an enemy gets too close for comfort, move forward and rapid fire/flame away. If theres anything left, brace for close combat.

Second, deployment is key. Place your men in ranks like this

s s s s s s



M M M M M M



M M M M M M



M M M M M M

What I've done is placed a unit of scouts in my front rank, since they're cheaper, to as as a "meat sheild". If you get rushed my an elite close combat unit (like infiltrating and scouting genestealers) turn one, they soak up your casualties. If you can afford the space, leave 7 inches between ranks, and space them just close enough to maintain consistancy. That way if the units in the front rank get masacred then your entire game isnt over. You move in, rapid fire, and the genestealers or whatever die. Place the weapons with the longest range in the rear for obvious reasons. Remember youre working against the clock and you want to maximize your shots since you'll probably be out-done in close combat if you focus on shooting. So fire away! shoot relentlessly until they reach you.

My third piece of advice is to keep some good close combat units nearby with power weapons ect. They'll help you out if you get rushed and have to engage in close combat. I like to use an HQ and comand squad for this role. Keep them near the rest of your army and counter attack your enemy when the moment is right.

Nowthats what I've found works for me. what works for you? lets start some discussion and hopefully we'll be able to improve each others gaming abilities!

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Very good advice! One thing I would say is that staggering your lines like that can make for a very defensive army, and sometimes, you need to move! I would place units where they are able to cover each other, like a circle, or square or whatever, with the longest range stuff in the middle. That way, you can advance, stay put, etc.

I would also recommend to anyone and everyone that they check out White Dwarf 305. It has shooting tactica in it. Dave Taylor talks about Range, Fire Zones, and Flexibility, and more!

[Brother_Ambrose]

One thing i forgot is to try to focus your fire power, shoot one enemy squad till its below scoring strength, then move on to the next. Don't spread your fire too thin!

[hairyyahoo]

[quote=Inquisitor Rosenadel;1224]Very good advice! One thing I would say is that staggering your lines like that can make for a very defensive army, and sometimes, you need to move! ++text deleted++ QUOTE]

Yo to you

Want to move while still putting out some firepower? Try "Alternating Overwatch". Basically set up 2 squads armed for shooting, 1 slightly further forwards than the other. Then move the rearmost squad forwards while using the stationary squad to shoot any enemy unit likley to target the movers . Next turn reverse and repeat, last turns movers become this turns shooters and vice versa. If the coast is clear then you can move both squads or if the enemy appears in force you can fire with both.

There you go, moving and firing (albeit, doing both as half effeciency)

Food for thought

[Torquemada Coteaz]

generally this works the same as fantasy.
set up some shooty squads in the middle, overlapping firefields, prefereably long range. a damage soaker in the front and 2 CC fast units at the side to deflect/meet enemy CC and flankers.

also I like 3 squads of lighter shooters with a unit of heavier shooters between every 2 of th elighter ones:
---------[terrain] ------- [terrain]---------
[Lighter] [Heavy] [Lighter] [Heavy] [Lighter]
"-" represents open space (the forum doesnt allow me to space out text using spacebar)

I actually love the WD 305 Only War article on how to maximize shooting armies/units "before, during and after the shooting phase"
Generally summed up here:
- Define ranges and roles of units (roles and use of units often depend on range. you should group them into "long range", "medium", and "close")
- Remain aware of the objective (as with any tactics)
- Make plans based on opposing army (take into account likely enemy movements and position different units, weapons and so on accordingly to maximize damage on the enemy and minimize your damage.)
- cover your zones (maximize view of your unit's firing zones - LOS - and try to use terrain to funnel enemies. keep no LOS zones covered by support units)
- Be prepared to change your plans. (in famous words. "plans only last till the first shot is fired", so adapt your plan accordingly. If you find this hard to do so you may have to consider changing your original plan or army list)

[Perturabo]

One thing many people forget when deploying is that the enemy might not come straight at you-battles are rarely fought head on!
Many times i have out flanked an opponent who deployed for a head on charge,you must deploy a strong flank guarfd in any engagement otherwise the enenmy will engage you from the side and roll up your flank whilst you struggle to redeploy

[JaBoK]

Here's a great trick for tau/eldar/guard (mostly guard)

Line up your troops in a J shape then your army might look likt this:

|
|
|
|
|
/
/
_____/

Main force.

The J is used against CC armies. They charge it and you get multiple turns to move into a good firing position before the CC troops get out. If they don't you can shoot em from the side. In CC they last forever because they cannot engage all units. Sometimes two Js works good.

[hairyyahoo]

Originally Posted by JaBoK

Here's a great trick for tau/eldar/guard (mostly guard)

Line up your troops in a J shape then your army might look likt this:

|
|
|
|
|
/
/
_____/

Main force.

The J is used against CC armies. They charge it and you get multiple turns to move into a good firing position before the CC troops get out. If they don't you can shoot em from the side. In CC they last forever because they cannot engage all units. Sometimes two Js works good.

Sorry dude you lost me on that. Is this going from your deployment to you opponents or accross your own? Which end are the enemy assulting from? Who? What?WWWHHHHYYYYYYYY!!!????

[Torquemada Coteaz]

haha yeah.
on flanking, though many people post CC units to flank, remember that they are vulnerable to shooty

[Levin]

I say your best strategy is not to mix roles. I'm a big advocate of sending units in 2's to cover each other but for me it's all or nothing. I fire with both squads and move with both squads on the same turn. It's sometimes a gamble, but more often than not I end up blasting a unit to pieces that might have survived long enough to engauge one of my shoot squads.

Also, if you've got a shooty squad, shoot with it! Don't sit back to fire that one heavy weapon (reason #2430120 why I don't like putting heavy weapons in squads that need to rapidfire) I understand the whole Marines heavy bolter layout as its only an extra 5 points, but anything else is a waste.

When I shoot I shoot to kill. None of this, knock them below half strength business. I want to knock them out of the game. Via pinning, death... whatever. The problem is that if only 1 guy survives your shooting, he can charge you. And provided he doesn't die in the melee, he'll hold you up at least 1 turn that you need to be shooting somebody else. Sometimes, its good to plan on being charged after the shot, but be smart about it.

Set up assault screens at least 3 inches apart. that way, the average consolidation/sweeping advance won't take your enemy into another one of your units in his turn. This frees up your units to do more shooting....

Lastely, don'e get bogged down. Keep your fire lanes open. If you get locked into combat, you block your own LOS for shooting. A smart player will use this to his advantage. look before you leap.

Levin

[Steellegioncpt]

OR what you can do is take the very simple military strategy. You have a fire team and an assault team. One designed fireteam would be a squad fitted with guns. For example a tactical squad with bolters, a heavy weapon, and a special weapon. Then you get the assault sqaud which would mainly be a tactical squad with cc weapons and possible a special weapon. Thus the fireteam would cover the assualt team as they move up.

[Levin]

The deal with special weapons is that they are most often designed to be move and shoot weapons... That's why basically every single one of them (except plasma) is classed as Assault. Leave the heavies to their platoons. If you examine real life, the army doesn't field squads of 10 men to a single machinegun implacement. The implacements opperate individually or in tandum with other implacements, while the infantry squads are designed to move into a good (optimum ranged location). In terms of 40k, this means rapidfire range.

If you look at your units as being

Heavy = long range and stationary

Rapid fire = medium range, mobile until in range

Assault = less than 6" from your opponents.

I think we're saying the same thing here, minus the heavy weapons thing. Sure you can fire a plasmagun at 24", but it works much better if you rapidfire into a unit. A 1 is a 1 no matter how close you are to a unit and regaurdless of whether you fired once or twice. Granted you're more likely to overheat when rapidfiring, but nothing wagered, nothing gained.

In terms of the grenade launcher, it simply doesn't have the range or real effective stopping power of other assault weapons. Any weapon below S7 needs to be fired more than once (especially at BS3).

I'm speaking in terms of an IG army but the theory applies across the board. (Which is why I'm still bitter about the new rules for guardians having to have a weapons platform...)

[r4wr89]

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Rosenadel

I would also recommend to anyone and everyone that they check out White Dwarf 305. It has shooting tactica in it. Dave Taylor talks about Range, Fire Zones, and Flexibility, and more!

yes i agree, excellent advice. lol i've been building an SM army for so long and suddenly realized that i am shooting heavy, so this helps me out a lot :]

does anyone know if WD 305 is still online ? just wondering..

:]
-ant

[Torquemada Coteaz]

no sorry mate.
WD issues and articles are not publicised online (except occasionally in black gobbo, or supplements to that article are in that issue's page).
you can always check the GW online store / direct services for back issues, or check local GW for any leftover copies in auction days

[Levin]

I was about to say... I didn't think WD was online, but I didn't want to say anything in case I was wrong. Either way, just try out some of the advice given. It's all sound, and probably too much to remember in the midst of a game. Experience is the best teacher.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Originally Posted by Brother_Ambrose

I've been playing a shhoting army (Dark Angels) for a few months now and wanted to compile some of the information I've learned about playing with large numbers of long ranged weapons.

Build your squads properly. For Marines, this means no devestators.

I really couldn't disagree with you more on this score. While I agree with your later advice to use lots of Tac squads, the amount of firepower Devs can crank out more than justifies the additional cost for the heavy weapons in them, at least as far as heavy bolters and missile launchers are concerned.

Use Tacticals. Use even numbers, as theyre harder to score on. Use tactical squads over devestators, with a heavy weapon in each. I like to use a six man squad with a veteran segeant, a flamer, a heavy bolter, and 3 normal marines.

I'm not totally disagreeing with you, but the trouble with little squads is that most armies seem to have units that were designed with the specific intent to chew up such squads. The most obvious case in point is the Tyranid Lictor. When I played this way, I used to hate those things. These days, I'm fielding 10-man Tac squads lead by Veteran Sergeants with power fists. Lictors are only a minor nuisance to such squads. Bikes are another good unit to punish little squads with, as they can get to them fast.

These seem to be effective, epseacially since oinly one of my six normal opponents (Chaos) ever gets an armour save against the HB. This set up is also nice for Cities of Death. Taken many of these little squads. They maximize the number of heavy weapons, and they allow you to take off normal marines with bolters for casualties. If an enemy gets too close for comfort, move forward and rapid fire/flame away. If theres anything left, brace for close combat.

I've been doing the close-range firefight a lot lately, and I have to tell you that against most armies, you have to lay down a lot more than 8 bolter shots to get a good effect.

Second, deployment is key.

So true!

Place your men in ranks like this

s s s s s s



M M M M M M



M M M M M M



M M M M M M

What I've done is placed a unit of scouts in my front rank, since they're cheaper, to as as a "meat sheild". If you get rushed my an elite close combat unit (like infiltrating and scouting genestealers) turn one, they soak up your casualties. If you can afford the space, leave 7 inches between ranks, and space them just close enough to maintain consistancy. That way if the units in the front rank get masacred then your entire game isnt over. You move in, rapid fire, and the genestealers or whatever die. Place the weapons with the longest range in the rear for obvious reasons. Remember youre working against the clock and you want to maximize your shots since you'll probably be out-done in close combat if you focus on shooting. So fire away! shoot relentlessly until they reach you.

The trouble with this deployment is that, with 7 inch gaps between each line and 1 inch bases, you're talking about a formation with a depth of 25", which is more than halfway across a standard table, and that's assuming that your rear line is lined up right on your own table edge. Sounds nice on paper, but units on foot will take a long time getting there, and that's assuming that terrain isn't an issue and that your opponent obligingly lets you set up your super-formation.

The concept of staggered lines is a good one, but I think you're approaching it the wrong way. I would go with something more like this:

T T T T T T

D D D D D D

A A A A A A

The first line is a Tactical squad, the second is a Devestator Squad (but you could use anything), and the third line is an assault unit of your choice. The only real spacing restrictions are that you want the assault unit to be able to move and counterassault a unit attacking the front rank, and that there be more than 6" between the second and third rank. An assaulty opponent will hit the front line. If he's lucky, he might punch through the front rank and consolidate into your second rank, but then you counterassault and (hopefully) send him packing.

My third piece of advice is to keep some good close combat units nearby with power weapons ect. They'll help you out if you get rushed and have to engage in close combat. I like to use an HQ and comand squad for this role. Keep them near the rest of your army and counter attack your enemy when the moment is right.

That's good advice. Players of shooty armies have a tendency to neglect contingencies for getting wrapped up in assault. That's a big mistake. Players of assaulty armies tend to be good at getting their units into assault, so you have to have a plan for dealing with this eventuality, otherwise the game is effectively over once your opponent gets a single unit in your lines. Command Squads are good for counterassault purposes, but don't neglect other choices. An Assault Squad led by a Chaplain is also a good choice, especially as it's superior mobility lets it get where you need it more reliably. Scouts aren't a bad choice, either. They have the same punch as an Assault Squad and are considerably cheaper. If you want to have something real hard-core, use an Assault Terminator Squad with L-claws and Furious Charge led by an attached Chaplain. Throw in a couple of T-hammers for dealing with Monstrous Creatures, and you'll have a unit that will make almost anything melt off the table.

Nowthats what I've found works for me. what works for you? lets start some discussion and hopefully we'll be able to improve each others gaming abilities!

Well, what I've found is that there are three aspects to successfully playing a shooty army: deployment, target prioritization, and crisis management. Deployment is fairly obvious: you want to deploy in such a way so as to maximize the area of table you can bring under your guns. Crisis management, we already talked about above, so what I really want to address is Target Prioritization.

Target Prioritization is the most important skill for successfully playing a shooty army. You need to be able to tell what you have to put steel on right away and what you can afford to ignore for a few turns. This may vary, depending on what army you're playing against. If you're up against another shooty opponent, then what you want to eliminate first are his biggest sticks: ordnance tanks being your top priority targets (unless you get an armor save against the ordnance in question), and heavy weapon squads being the next highest priority after that. After that, it's a matter of bringing down whatever's left that you consider dangerous.

If you're playing against an assaulty army, then you want to concentrate on bringing down the fast units first. Fast units often aren't the most hardcore assault elements, but are intented to tie up your lines long enough for the heavy hitters to reach your lines. Therefore, the fast stuff has to go first. You mop that stuff up, and you'll usually have time to deal with the slower, harder units.

Sometimes, what style of army your opponent is playing isn't readily apparent just by looking at it on the table. If you can't tell what an opponent might be trying to do, then as a rule of thumb shoot at loaded transports first. Whatever is in them is bad news. You can always bring down gun-toting vehicles after you deal with the transports. Ignore empty transports unless your opponent is doing something clever with them. Immobilized transports are as good as destroyed for your purposes - they can't get your opponent's stuff to you quicker anymore, so ignore them. Finally, remember that a Shaken/Stunned gun tank isn't a threat to you next turn, so if you get one of these results, move on to another target, unless there's nothing else to shoot.

Try to keep in mind how much return you're likely to get for a given effort. In one game I played against an Eldar opponent, I spent four turns trying (unsuccessfully) to bring down his damn Falcons. It then dawned on me that his Vypers were doing almost as much damage and would be way easier to bring down. If I'd done that on turn 2, I might have won that game.

If you want to get good at target prioritization, one of the best things you can do is read the other guys' codices. Knowing what the other armies in the game can do is critical to beating them, no matter what style of army you play.

[Levin]

I really like the in depth thought in this last post. Good work Raziel. In terms of a marine type army, assault is usually going to be nasty. Most units that actually want to assault marines are going to be brutal in cc. For this reason I suggest really tooling up your counter assault unit. You have to assume there's going to be a few power weapons in your opponents squad, so be careful. Squads with furious charge do really well in a counter assault scenario. In most cases you get to go first, meaning that your power weapons stand a good chance of killing his power weapons.

Assuming you're not a marine player, my prefered strategy is to stagger assault screens. We've already talked about some good ways to do this, but I think the best way is to space your front unit roughly 4" in front of the unit behind it. If all goes well, then they'll breeze through you on their assault phase, only to be left standing an inch away... That means its full auto mode for them. In most cases, this does the trick, but always have a 3rd line waiting close by to repeat this tactic. Sometimes it just goes wrong though, so it never hurts to bring some nasty CC units to the table. Sometimes that's just not an option, as most shooty armies don't take too many of these types of squads so it pays to play smart and consider what your opponent might, and can do worse case scenario.

[Chaptermaster Kezef]

well i play a shooty/assault army basically i field

Hq + Command geared for CC w/ Furious Charge

Tactical marines in both roles
a few squads that shoot and form my firing lines with a non vet sgt and a HB usually
a few squads that assault with bp and CCW and Furious charge, a vet Sgt tooled for CC. in Drop pod

but when i can i also field Assault marines with Jump packs

i also utilise CC Support Dreads AsC/DCCW (SB)
Tank hunting dreads ML/LC

basically when i deploy i only deploy my armor and Shooting troops, and deep strike the rest to where they are needed, this has given me mixed results but fits with my play style.

i usually do real well in my assaults and have been know to remove whole squads in one round of CC, but i usually take alot of hits on my shooting squads as a result.

and i dont use Lightning Claws except on assault Terminators

i also have only played on 48"x48" tables this probably has alot to do with my playstyle but thats how the shop is set up so the most players can play at once

[Grand Master Raziel]

Originally Posted by Levin

I really like the in depth thought in this last post. Good work Raziel. In terms of a marine type army, assault is usually going to be nasty. Most units that actually want to assault marines are going to be brutal in cc. For this reason I suggest really tooling up your counter assault unit. You have to assume there's going to be a few power weapons in your opponents squad, so be careful. Squads with furious charge do really well in a counter assault scenario. In most cases you get to go first, meaning that your power weapons stand a good chance of killing his power weapons.

Well, one thing that should be obvious but bears stating is that assault units are usually way more dangerous when you let them initiate assaults. If you preemptively charge them, then at the very least you are denying each figure the bonus attack for charging, and often you're denying charge-based bonuses as well, such as Furious Charge and Power of the Waagh! A lot of the really nasty assault units are nasty because of things like this. If you don't let them charge you, they become a lot more managable.

Other nasty assault units are nasty because they have really high initiative, but this can be gotten around as well. Lure such units into terrain, then assault them with a unit equipped with frag grenades. That way, everyone goes at the same time - considerably better than going after the whole unit gets all its attacks. The only unit this won't work on is Howling Banshees, because the wording of the Banshee Mask states that they go first in the first round of close combat.

[Killermoose]

I think that the thing that shooty marines are going to have to look out for from the new Eldar codex are Dark Reapers, with an Exarch with a Tempest Launcher and Fast Shot. Thats 8 48" range strength 5 AP 3 shots from the sqaud, and 3 G36" strength 4 AP3 Blast shots from the Exarch. The squad has the ability to shoot at marines pretty much immediatly on most boards, and as soon as the Space Marines are able to be shot by the Exarch there is going to be some serious ownage. All of this before the Space Marine tatical squads are even able to shoot. If there is lots of cover on the board and the Eldar Exarch takes the Crack shot power it is just as good- one less shot than fast shot, but re-roll to wound, and no cover saves. I'm so taking some in my Eldar army! (only 1 squad though, I think taking 3 would be slightly power gaming, which I am not a fan of.) Deep Striking Terminators would be good against these sorts of squads, or Dreadnoughts, or tanks (though the chances are the Eldar player will take something like a Fire Prism (also very deadly against marines, if 3 all link shots you get a Strength 7 AP2 Large blast shot, or a Strength 10 AP1 shot ) or a Falcon to deal with these, or if they are maxing out their Dark Reapers probably Vypers or Fire Dragons (Im not a fan of Vypers myself). These sqauds will also fair well against Devestators, and as they now have a 3+ save, heavy bolters cease to be as effective. Sorry about ranting about Reapers, I'm just drooling over them at the moment =)

[Brother_Ambrose]

Thats really balls...why do the always make new codexes so powerful? They're starting to have a problem with power creep. New Dark Angels Codex better be good...