APC vs IFV

[Gnr. Keil]

An argument aboute the effectiveness of Armoured Personel carriers (APC) like Rhinos, Devil Fish, Trukks and the Dark Eldar Raider versus Infantry Fighting Vehichles (IFV) like Chimeras, Razor backs, Land Raiders, and Wave serpants.
Rules such as Skimmer, fast, and opened top are not taken into account.

APC Pros
1.) APC's will generally move faster (7"-12") since they don't have the shooty potential that IFV's do.
2.) APC's can generally carry more models then IFV's.
3.) APC's cost less and are more acceptible when they are destroyed then an IFV. Additionaly you can have more APC's point for point the IFV's.
4.) Any others people will like to add i will edit in.
APC Cons
1.) Generally don't have high armour and can be taken out by massed small arms fire in any arc.
2.) Have only one perpouse. Get the troops from point A to B.
3.) Lack of self defense requires more support form the rest of the deployed force.
4.) Any others people will like to add i will edit in.
IFV Pros
1.) IFV's are more independant.
2.) Higher armour makes them more survivable and can shrug off small arms fire effectively.
3.) Can threaten all forms of infantry and light to medium vehichles AV12-13.
4.) More effectively support there cargo.
5.) Any others people will like to add i will edit in.
IFV Cons
1.) Cost more points then APC's and are more deptrimental when lost.
2.) Generally cary less troops then APC's
3.) Move at a more combat pace (6").
4.) Any others people will like to add i will edit in.

[Ikarus]

I think there is a place for APCs (though devilfish i could argue that you kit it out with SMS systems you have a gunboat right there~ 7 shots of nastiness).

Overall generally, we do see these options with APCs and IFVs. The reason why people are aimed for IFVs is the sole purpose that it is both a transport (to whatever its transporting) and has the ability to also kill.

We see two advantages versus one.

While APCs are cheaper they do die fast.

(everything you said in your points)



Now when it comes down to it. I think its classified under this:


Rhino

APCs

and IFV

(haha rhino in my opinion is on its own, because.. it just not delivers)


DFISH - we see mech tau armies, so no complains.
Trukks and raiders are open topped = VERY GOOD APC so people actually praise them no complains either. So its the rhino that stands out as the poor soul.

[JoeGuardsman]

My tactical style tends straight towards the IFV. Guard only has the Chimera which benefits from being the highest armor value, highest fire power, highest troop capacity transport barring the landraider and the Devilfish is about a tie. With all of my armies however I want everything to contribute to it's utmost every turn so I like that an IFV can move 12" and get into position or it can add it's supporting fire. Cause even if I'm only moving 6" all I want is my battle plan to be completed by turn 6 and all I need is 5 turns to go from deployment zone to deployment zone. This is entirely a firefight style of tactics and does not at all translate to an assault style army. (Disclaimer)

[MSguardsmen]

Chimeras are fricken awesome. they are one of the few in not only tread based vehicle that is amphibious, has 6 lasgun shots that can always shoot(as long as someone is in the back) 3 multilaser, 3 heavy bolter and if you want to stop for a while and become open topped a heavy or special weapon can be added to the fire power. also you can add a stubber and hunter killer missile to bring up to a possible 19 shots in one turn. all at just 112 points (or something like that) but yes the IFV does have a few advantages over the APC but those have already been covered

[experiment 626]

well, i don't really think that one is overall superior to the other really, as both APC's and IFV's have very distinct and different battlefield roles!

- an apc is ment to simply get their charges to the thick of the fighting or the best firepoint...
they are simply another tool like a jump pack!

- an ifv is ment to *support* it's charges and in essenance act like another squad in it's own right!
it simply has the advantage of being armoured.

i don't like to compare the two because of this huge tactical difference...

however, there are times when for example, an apc is more efficent than an ifv depending on the unit needing the transport;
- a squad of 6 inquisitorial storm troopers with 2 meltaguns benifits more from the rhino than it does the much more expensive chimera! usually you simply want to rush this type of cheap tank-hunter unit upto an enemy vehicle and unload melta death.
- conversely, how many space marine players would kill to have the option of a chimera to provied support fire to say a big unit of close assault oriented veterans?!!

cheers!

[Grand Master Raziel]

You didn't happen to read my last post, did you? I bring it up because I happened to mention something about the difference between APCs and IFVs in this game. Anyhow, I'm going to refrain from voting, because I don't think one type of vehicle is "better" than the other, but they do lend themselves to different tactics. APCs lend themselves to certain shena****ns that you really wouldn't do with IFVs because APCs are cheaper and more expendable. You can use APCs as mobile terrain, hindering opposing troop movement and blocking the LOS of opposing units. I suppose you could do that with IFVs, but you probably wouldn't because they're so much more expensive, and also provide so much more fire support than APCs do. That makes them considerably less expendable. They become assets that you want to try and preserve rather than something you can afford to sacrifice to gain an advantage for a turn.

Anyhow, the only vehicles in this game that I would consider APCs are Rhinos and Ork Wartrukks. DE Raiders can kind of qualify, too, but since each one sports a Dark Lance, they could be considered IFVs. Also, with Raiders being skimmers, you can't put them to the LOS-blocking that you can do with Rhinos or Wartrukks. Razorbacks are a bastard-child cross between APC and IFV, and are not really good at being either. The only thing I'll use a Razorback for is to schlep around a Techmarine and his retinue of servitors. Chimeras and Devilfish are pretty decent IFVs, and the Wave Serpent is more like a pretty fair medium-ish tank with a good transport capacity.

[experiment 626]

well, quite honestly, i will indeed use a chimera to block line of sight to a unit's flank if it serves to help me achive my objectives!

consider for a moment, an armoured fist squad is advancing towards the building they need to take. as the guardsmend need to be phsyically inside the building, they jump out of their chimera and (assuming they get lucky with the difficult terrain roll), they make it into the building.
the chimera now takes up a position on the building's corner and not only does it protect the guardsmen's flank, but it offers heavy anti-infantry and some light anti-vehicle support too!
the chimera in this case, though an expensive ifv is compleatly expendable because it can't hold the objectve - only the guardsmen can do that job!

what i'm trying to say here is that to me, there is no "better than the other." both apc's and ifv's have very different roles that depend solely on the type of unit they're transporting and the plans you have for that unit...
however, ifv's are much more adaptable than an apc with the downside being they cost a helluva lot more pts!

cheers!

[Grand Master Raziel]

Originally Posted by experiment 626

well, quite honestly, i will indeed use a chimera to block line of sight to a unit's flank if it serves to help me achive my objectives!

I suppose I would too, under the right circumstances, but I'd be more reluctant to. Using a Chimera that way is a conscious decision to sacrifice one combat asset to protect another combat asset, whereas with Rhinos, the mental process is more like, "Well, this Rhino over here isn't doing anything important, so it might as well block my opponent's LOS over there." Also, considering that one Chimera costs roughly as much as two Rhinos, you have a lot less of them to spare for such shena****ns.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Grand Master Raziel

I suppose I would too, under the right circumstances, but I'd be more reluctant to. Using a Chimera that way is a conscious decision to sacrifice one combat asset to protect another combat asset, whereas with Rhinos, the mental process is more like, "Well, this Rhino over here isn't doing anything important, so it might as well block my opponent's LOS over there." Also, considering that one Chimera costs roughly as much as two Rhinos, you have a lot less of them to spare for such shena****ns.

main thing to keep in mind though - even ifv's are dedicated transports and as such they aren't ever counted as scoring units! (except for the land raider!!!)

makes it a very easy choice for me personally when choosing who and what to sacrifce...

cheers!

I just don't like APCs... They die far too easily. Not much to it other than they die, and I'd like the things in my transports to LIVE

[Tzeentch's Angels]

APC's are far too expensive for how crunchy they are.

[Gnr. Keil]

Well it's unanimouse(spelled wrong, i know) then. IFV's are more popular then APC's. Respecting 626 and Rhino lovers i will not flat out say that IFV's are superior to APC's(The Devil Fish APC is a work of art) but they deffinetly have more flexibility and purpose on the table. Oooh ideas are formulating for VDR for Marines/Chaos, Tau, and Orcs.

[Dan296]

i like IFVs more because=
you can assault out of a land raider. very useful when it charges forward 12'' and out pops 10 possesed. basicly an 18 inch assault.

razorbacks are a relitivly cheap way to have a twin linked lascannon, and devestator squads can take them adding even more firepower to that squad.

rhinos are waaayy to fragile, then taking into account that chaos ones are only FA-11

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Dan296

i like IFVs more because=
you can assault out of a land raider. very useful when it charges forward 12'' and out pops 10 possesed. basicly an 18 inch assault.

more like 20" assault move actually... don't forget the 'free' 2" deployment from the raider itself!

cheers!