Hunting the Fish

[Librarian_Tigurius]

I thought i would put up some basic ideas for defeating the fish of "Fury"

I put the Fury in quotes because the strategy isn't very offensive and doesn't involve much fury except for when you brush aside the expensive transport. other then being able to load up into a transport and rush across the table of course (putting them out of action for a couple of turns)

personally i think it is a horrible strategy because you are essentially rushing at your enemy with a horrible army to get into close combat with... and close combat player worth his salt will have tank busting weapons at his disposal but i get ahead of myself...

First for the assault-y army:

Take a powerfist ect. in every assaulting unit then cut right through the tank using it as a wall between you and the unit hiding behind it they may come running up from behind it but with a max of ten guys in there they will hit 50% of the time and wound 66% of the time wounding about 6-7 times in total if you have a low armor save army then this should be a drop in the bucket seeing as most of your units should have the numbers to absorb the casuities and if you are a high armor save army such as marines then you should only lose a guy or two leaving you for the most part still effective

Take heavy supports that use weapons that can destroy tanks thus opening up your front-liners to assault the unit crying and hiding behind the now smouldering wreck or even a penetration will help by forcing them to get out and taking a pinning check, and if they aren't close then they are forced to either walk or get back into their transport and they will be unable to unload (this is best used when they are about 24 away they then will most likely load back up and move up again then you can use the stratagy below to destroy thier tank and entangle them

Most Assault oriented armies have options in their units to take either high strength shooting (such as the plasma pistol in khorn) or even anti-tank weapons (such as the melta-gun in marines) i would recommend these choices as they give you the ability to stay out of assault range and still remove the fish from the game (in this scenario you have a good chance of catching the fish before it unloads if you play a waiting game and let them come to you by removing yourself from line of sight preventing them from shooting at your infantry then when the fish get close (thinking that you are going to keep waiting till they get within 12 so you can assault ASAP) you pop out and destroy their tank and entangling the troops inside

you can use a mix of these if you are a very strategic player and concert your troops to be in positions where one part of you army can be in position to destroy the vehicles and the other portion can be in position to assault the units that inevitably disembark

For shooty armies:

Take a weapon that is useful against armor 12 as well as troops (my favorite is the plasma cannon but a missile launcher is useful as well)

Be prepared to assault them when they get to 12" any armies basic troops is good against tau in close combat... even an imperial guardsmen will beat them in close combat easier then he will beat them in a very close range fire fight

Gratuitous use of rapid fire if they get close enough and you have enough units to still lock them in assault and have others rapid fire (imperial guard are the best at this, and of course eldar guardians can fire twice and still assault but i don't play eldar and don't know them very well)

And of course most shooting armies also have many vehicles to use and do use and they are best used wherever they are most suited... anti-tank vehicles are good going after the tanks and leaving the infantry to mop up the surviving fire warriors


In-between armies:
You should use a mix of these strategies mainly what appeals to you but most in-between armies are played by veterans or newbies so in either case this shouldn't be of much use to you


good luck against the tau, A.K.A the worst idea GW has ever had for an army, seeing as it is just made to be cheesy and take advantage of every weakness in every army without any of its own (being weak in close combat isn't much of a weakness when for the most part if you stand back and shoot you won't get caught up in any close combat in any case...)

Librarian_Tigurius

[MSguardsmen]

that last little bit about never being able to catch up. not true. just deep strike an entire platoon of Imperial Guard through out their entire force and they will not move or last the rest of the game. if you can deep strike some close combat termies, powerclaw and thunder hammer and grey knight termies work the best, you can just fold up their rank.

its quite easy to get most tau units into h2h work. its weathering the storm that is the hard part.

[experiment 626]

well, taking the devilfish out in assault isn't much of an option as it's a skimmer... you'll need alot of luck to knock it down that way!
shooting can also be made difficult because a properly kitted-out DF will have upgrades that force alot of re-rolls on the damage tables. (and i personally never roll anything above a 1 on the re-roll! ) still it is the most reliable way of knocking out the devil fish!

also, i should point out that only a very foolish khorne player takes plasma pistols as the 'zerkers are very prone to 'blood rage' and thus won't be able to shoot at all!

so what to do? deep strike my friend! a FoF force usually leaves a huge gaping hole between it's forward assault and fire support units... oh, and those silly space fishies are so nicely packed together too!
hit them flamers, (the heavy variety if you can!) and watch them roast. good units for this;
- assault marines or any squad capable of taking 2 flamers and a drop pod! termies are perfect options because of their ability to take upto 2 heavy flamers
- grey knight teleport squads w/2 incinerators
- seraphim w/paired hand flamers
- guard sentinels & remnent squads with the drop troops doctrine
- swooping hawks and their nasty, evil grenade packs
- gargoyles with the fleshborers can produce lots of wounds thanks to 'living ammo
- dark eldar scourges w/splinter cannons
- chaos has too many options, but at least raptors finally have a use! oblits can be pretty mean too... and never forget termies with heavy flamers!!!
- last but not least, drop an inquisitor with holocaust on the tau's doorstep... that pie-plate will really make them think twice about bunching up again!

i've used this tactic with my drop troops, and i must say my poor opponent was nearly butchered in a single turn! all he had left were his vehicles (2 devilfish, 1 hammerhead & 2 of 3 piranahs), commander and a flyer...
now of corse, i still lost the game because even after 9 glancing hits, all i could roll on the damage table was a stinkin' 1!!! still, i consoled myself that i still had half my infantry while my opponent's infantry assault was utterly broken! (he had 600vp's to my 521vp's)

cheers!

[Dan296]

ohhh stitch. the dice hate you my furry friend.
it is for this reason that i take powerfists instead of powerwep/meltabombs on my aspireing champions. with 4 attacks on charge i will most likely at least glance the !er. but ive never seen people use this. its not a good tactic, as you say.


but tau arent cheesy dude. its easy to play them like that and people that do give the rest of them a bad name. for example-every time ive played my friend with my nids, ive beaten him. every single time. nothin can beat a potential 24'' move n charge on 30 hormagaunts.

[rintinglen]

Dan, old buddy, ole Pal, I don't know who you been playing, but I have seen fish of fury tactics be very difficult to deal with. The Fish of Fury tactic provides two things, concentrated firepower and mobility. Part of the Lore of Warfare is "hitting 'em where they ain't."
A skilled Tau player uses his speed to gang up on one part of your army while the other parts are struggling to catch up. His tanks can move 12 inches, and can still shoot, and can ignore difficult terrain while doing so. The skilled player combines his marker-light cheese with his weaponry and mobility to make for hard times. He marks the target, Moves into rapid fire range, uses the marker to up the ballistic skill of the rapid firing squad and all of a sudden, you have 24 strength five shots that hit on 3's. Not to mention, the fact that the Devilfish can have 7 shots of its own, all strength 5. Toss in a pie plate at strength 6, ap4, and that squad is very likely to be toast.
MEQ Assault armies have the devil's own time dealing with such tactics. Did someone mention Khorne? Oh puleeeze!! My World Eaters Languish in their Cases. Why? Well, take 8 24 point models with a tooled up champ amongst them at a cost of about 240 points. Put 140 points of FireWarriors and 2 marker drones across the table. You're not going to make it. (Yeah, you can take a 19 point berzerker, but it you don't take a Khornate Chainaxe, and Frags you will regret it, and you will regret it and if you don't spend the 3 points for Furious Charge and someone sticks a Rhino, a Razorback, or an Immolator in front of you that you can't scratch but must assault, well that will be regrettable too.)
For my two cents, dealing with a Mobile Tau army is done with either a deep striking Guard or Drop Pod Space Marine Army, or else a SIGAFH. Imperial Guard Armies can have more heavy weapons than Anybody, many more than a Tau army. You shoot enough Lascannons and Autocannons and they will eventually hit something!

[MSguardsmen]

wow stich i must be stilling all of your luck.

every time i have played against my friend who plays tau i all ways destroy his vehicles on the first shot.

and i all ways roll a 6 for annihilated.

heck even this one time he managed to get 2 pirahna with fusion/meltas to the left of my land raider and blasted away at point blank range only to have his meltas run out of gas and miss. my turn came around i turned the land raider and blasted the both of them out of the sky with my lascannons. then i deployed my terminators who preccedd to roll up the tau flank destroying everything in its path until time was called.

[NileChild]

FoF is not meant to put a non CC army into CC. It is a defensive maneuver and mobile maneuver. The idea is to get your FWs in that magic 12" rapid fire range and to keep out of assault and CC if at all possible. It is to spray the enemy with pulse fire and then hop back on the the fish and move back luring them into other units such as XV8s, railgun range(though isn't everything ), sniper drones and the like. So first off i think you've got FoF mixed up. Next here's what i think is good to do.


first off take out and Fishes with Seeker missles and then any other fishes. You can be risky and let them FoF you and then open up with plasma or las. Tau are allergic to lascannons, plasma weaponry and missle launchers.

Thats my advice, pop open those fishes before you succomb to the greater goods superior tactics!!!! Then that leaves FWs open to fire, and FWs suck when taking any sustained firepower.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by rintinglen

...For my two cents, dealing with a Mobile Tau army is done with either a deep striking Guard or Drop Pod Space Marine Army, or else a SIGAFH. Imperial Guard Armies can have more heavy weapons than Anybody, many more than a Tau army. You shoot enough Lascannons and Autocannons and they will eventually hit something!

i just want to point out that thanks to the traits & legion rules, both loyalist and chaos marines can pull off a decent facsimilie of the 'Shooty Imperial Guard Army From Hell' (aka SIGAFH!)

codex space marines can take traits to allow them upto 6 devastator squads! while chaos players can use the iron warriors list for a 4th heavy support choice... (like a 4th havoc squad!)
add on a trait that allows infiltrate and you deploy all your big guns after the tau have lined up their entire force! (or simply buy the skill if you're chaos)

combine that with a unit or two of deep striking termies, and you'll give those silly space fishies a good 'ol fashioned thumping!

cheers!

[Houder]

I don't know if any one has thought of this but I’m tired and can't be bothered reading all the post because I’m about to go to bed.

But any way tau will generally use this maneuver against cc enemies (because it's stupid to put your self in harms way) so let's think about this for a sec the fish of fury is meant to allow the fire warriors to get within 12" to rapid fire while being out of assault range, now what happens when a vehicle get's destroyed (say by a lascannon sitting in the back or maybe a melta gun near by) it becomes terrain. well there’s no longer vehicle barring the way for that unit that was made for killing firewarriors so now the firewarrior unit that thought it was safe is out in the open waiting to be mauled in combat (except there’s all way’s the problem of difficult terrain tests but that’s another story).

I’m sorry if some one else has said this or if it’s kind of stupid but it seems kind of too obvious for me not to mention well hope I added some thing.

[Librarian_Tigurius]

Originally Posted by Houder

I don't know if any one has thought of this but I’m tired and can't be bothered reading all the post because I’m about to go to bed.

But any way tau will generally use this maneuver against cc enemies (because it's stupid to put your self in harms way) so let's think about this for a sec the fish of fury is meant to allow the fire warriors to get within 12" to rapid fire while being out of assault range, now what happens when a vehicle get's destroyed (say by a lascannon sitting in the back or maybe a melta gun near by) it becomes terrain. well there’s no longer vehicle barring the way for that unit that was made for killing firewarriors so now the firewarrior unit that thought it was safe is out in the open waiting to be mauled in combat (except there’s all way’s the problem of difficult terrain tests but that’s another story).

I’m sorry if some one else has said this or if it’s kind of stupid but it seems kind of too obvious for me not to mention well hope I added some thing.

You can't charge a unit that you cant see... and you can't see the Tau if they are behind terrain... thus no charging the tau

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Librarian_Tigurius

You can't charge a unit that you cant see... and you can't see the Tau if they are behind terrain... thus no charging the tau

a destroyed vehicle generally becomes area terrain meaning that the assault unit in question can now walk through the wreck and thus charge the space fishies!
usually though, unless the assaulting unit has the 'fleet' USR, they'll have to wait a turn before moving and setting up for the charge, thus giving the fire warriors a chance to back off!

as pointed out though, if the difficult terrain tests aren't kind, you'll be left a sitting duck! (so try and use an assault unit that gets the 'fleet' rule to cut down the odds of a bad difficult terrain test bitting you!)

cheers!

[Librarian_Tigurius]

Originally Posted by experiment 626

a destroyed vehicle generally becomes area terrain meaning that the assault unit in question can now walk through the wreck and thus charge the space fishies!
usually though, unless the assaulting unit has the 'fleet' USR, they'll have to wait a turn before moving and setting up for the charge, thus giving the fire warriors a chance to back off!

as pointed out though, if the difficult terrain tests aren't kind, you'll be left a sitting duck! (so try and use an assault unit that gets the 'fleet' rule to cut down the odds of a bad difficult terrain test bitting you!)

cheers!

That would be true but the definition of area terrain means you cannot see through it... you can see 6" in and 6" out but not through it... thus no declaring a charge and no shooting... that is why the fish of "fury" is so popular because you can shoot at the unit behind it but you can't charge them.. or you can take out the fish but they are free to run up and shoot you at rapid fire range... again.

Also fleet of foot/hoof/claw doesn't prevent you from charging either... as it is not shooting AT someone... it is instead of shooting so you can fleet and charge...

[Houder]

Originally Posted by Librarian_Tigurius

You can't charge a unit that you cant see... and you can't see the Tau if they are behind terrain... thus no charging the tau

Too true like I said I was tired now that I think about it again it seems rather stupid but if you get vehicle anillated you can charge.

[Grand Master Raziel]

Two words: heavy flamers. You don't need to get close enough to assault, heavy flamers wound Fire Warriors on a 2+, and deny both their armor saves and any cover save they might get from huddling near their fish. Personally, Devilfish tactics have never really bothered me. When playing against Tau, what really gets under my skin are the damn move-shoot-move battlesuits. The only answer to them is taking something fast enough to chase them down.

[Dan296]

well rintin i didnt mention khorne now DID i =D
against tau i will take my nids, which can handl the mass firepower with mass bodies, or my normal SM which can get into combat much, much faster.

[OgrynGore]

Ummm with my Ogryn Army the FoF would be hard. The only way my Feral Ogryn could destroy a Fish is assualting the side or rear. Maybe in the Movement Phase you cover up the access points, then in the Shooting Phase destroy it. Thus killing the Devilfish and all Fire Warriors inside. You could also do this in assualt to the same effect. I hope this will work for me.... Other wise my Feral Ogryns are goin to take a beating.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by OgrynGore

Ummm with my Ogryn Army the FoF would be hard. The only way my Feral Ogryn could destroy a Fish is assualting the side or rear. Maybe in the Movement Phase you cover up the access points, then in the Shooting Phase destroy it. Thus killing the Devilfish and all Fire Warriors inside. You could also do this in assualt to the same effect. I hope this will work for me.... Other wise my Feral Ogryns are goin to take a beating.

your normal ogryns and hq command squad can get chimeras... with the imperial armour vol.1 book, you have the option for an autocannon turret which can help out a little bit.
hunter-killer MISSiles are an expensive, but potenitally worthwhile investment too if they can hit...

also you can also give any model with armoury access melta bombs... eventually you'll get lucky and land a hit! (well, hopefully )

cheers!

[MSguardsmen]

WHAT STICTH IS ACTUALLY VOUCHING FOR HUNTER KILLER MISSILES? i cant hear you lalalalalalala.

sorry about that.

well any kind of army that settles with close combat is always gonna have trouble without some sort of balance between shooting and cc (doesnt apply to khorne, BA, BT, or the ORKS)

probably one of the best things i heard on this forum is infiltrate a heavy weapon platoon or devastator squad or whatever version your race gets so that way they deploy last and can get a good los on that hammer head.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by MSguardsmen

WHAT STICTH IS ACTUALLY VOUCHING FOR HUNTER KILLER MISSILES? i cant hear you lalalalalalala.

sorry about that.

ya well, normally i'd never waste the points on the silly things, but with a heavily themed army like an all ogryn regiment, the hunter-killers are a nessessary evil!

cheers!

[MSguardsmen]

LALALALALALA STILL CANT HEAR YOU!


ogryns. hmmmm tau or eldar vehicles would probably be one of the few things you could only take down. alot easier to dent and wraithbone isnt that hard to break as it is just a highly complex plastic/bone material.

however ogryns would be a good fight just like orks in COD where the lack of good LOS can be dangerous to tau.