My Black Templar Doctrine, How is it?

[sjclem1]

O.K. fellow Templars, first allow me to say how glad I am to be with you all. I am new to the 40k world and several have questioned my description of a 2000 pt army as small, all of the other gaming club members are old schoolers which hold 2 or 3 10,000 to 20,000 pt armies. I feel safe calling mine small.

Anyway, this is my makeup and strategy for my Templars, most of us already agree that SPEED is needed in this army and I feel putting as much as I can closer to the enemy (infiltrate) and speed (jump packs and teleporting) is the best for me. I've yet to put this in a tournament, but it is currently undefeated against the green skins of a much more experienced player. So, please tell me how this is (strategically sound) for a possible tournament play.

High Marshal, w/ jump pack, artificer armor, terminator honors, master crafted weapon, and a teleport homer. Marshal is attached to a 10 member initiate assault squad with bolt pistols, close combat weapons, and jump packs.

Here is a sticky point (if the Master of Sanctity and his command squad count as one or two different HQ choices)

Master of Sanctity, w/ artificer armor, terminator honors, master crafted weapon, and teleport homer. The priest is attached to a 10 member command squad with bolt pistol, close combat weapon, and infiltration.

The Emperor's Champion attached to a 10 member crusader squad (no vehicle)

Terminator Assault Squad with lightning claws and teleport

2 "7" initiate crusader squads with a heavy weapon (1 lascannon and 1 Heavy Bolter)

Vow: Accept all Challenges, No Matter the Odds

This totals 1494 including the points for the infiltration skill on the command squad.


I like the fact I'm much closer to the enemy lines before the first moves and the jump packs being cheaper than vehicles and getting just as far (moving the same distance but my jump infantry can still shoot once they're in range)

I took two teleport homers in order to bring my terminators to a location that is best needed without worrying about the mishaps that can occur.

with the Marshal, Master of Sanctity, 10 Sword Brethren, 10 initiates, 10 initiate assault marines, and 5 terminators... that makes a pretty heavy hitting force and once they're in close combat, my sloggers can move up in support. They will be shooting at targets while the others are getting in though.

The vehicles are kind of scary being that artillery, tanks, and heavy weapons can focus on two or three targets and take all of them out in just a couple of turns.

[sjclem1]

Someone brought up that the BT unit only has one infiltrator unit (sword brethren), so I suggest reading pg 33 of the dex. Under the special skills section the HQ can take furious charge, counter-attack, or infiltrate. So, with HQ and sword brethren (elite) there are a possible of 20 infiltrators, plus 10 in an assault squad with jump packs (fast attack), and 5 terminator assault squad can place about 35 marines in your face within 3 turns.

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

A few things

1. Do you mean a master crafted power weapon?
2. Is that only 1 single anti tank weapon in your whole army. Err just shoot that one squad out and tanks are basically free reign.
3. You need some fists or something because for me I would just shoot the unit with the lascannon forcing it to make a zelous charge then charge in with my venerable drednaught nothing seems to be able to hurt in your army besides the master od sancity on a 6 to glance it.

[sjclem1]

After talking to a few people, we came up with that same conclusion. However, instead of more heavy weapons we're looking into melta-bombs and possibly a plasma-cannon in the front line squads.

I don't know about the power fists or thunder hammers. I want to utilize my initiative to pound quickly and not end up being last in the round. Is the power fist worth losing the initiative?

[experiment 626]

greetings & welcome to holy terra! i'll include my thoughts in your list

Originally Posted by sjclem1

Anyway, this is my makeup and strategy for my Templars, most of us already agree that SPEED is needed in this army and I feel putting as much as I can closer to the enemy (infiltrate) and speed (jump packs and teleporting) is the best for me. I've yet to put this in a tournament, but it is currently undefeated against the green skins of a much more experienced player. So, please tell me how this is (strategically sound) for a possible tournament play.

High Marshal, w/ jump pack, artificer armor, terminator honors, master crafted weapon, and a teleport homer. Marshal is attached to a 10 member initiate assault squad with bolt pistols, close combat weapons, and jump packs.

+++ the artificer armour, master-crafting & termie honours are a waste of pts;
a) the armour will not be used 99% of the time due to how the mixed armour rules work. once in combat, the stuff you generally want your IC fighting will ignore his save anyways!
b) master-crafting is horribly over-priced!!! if it let you re-roll all missed attacks, then the cost would be well worth it. however, a single re-roll for the cost of another marine is just pointless...
c) for basically the cost of another marine, you're gaining only 1 attack... i'd rather have the extra marine who is a scoring model, unlike your expensive IC!+++

Here is a sticky point (if the Master of Sanctity and his command squad count as one or two different HQ choices)

+++ a retinue that is bought for a specific character does not 'use up' any FOC slots - they count as part of the IC's slot...+++

Master of Sanctity, w/ artificer armor, terminator honors, master crafted weapon, and teleport homer. The priest is attached to a 10 member command squad with bolt pistol, close combat weapon, and infiltration.

+++ again, the artificer armour is a total waste, as are the honours. you really should add melta bombs to the chappy & a power fist vet sergeant to the command squad...
again the master-crafting! it's even more pointless on the chappy because of his own inherent re-roll abilities!+++

The Emperor's Champion attached to a 10 member crusader squad (no vehicle)

+++ the biggest advantage the templars have is numbers... no other loyalist chapter, (except space wolves), can potentially outnumber their foes in combat! use that advantage - bulk out your main squad with neophytes... 12-16 strong squads will generally make it into combat with reliable numbers, or else they'll occupy so much of your opponent's attention, that the rest of your force will be reletively unscathed!+++

Terminator Assault Squad with lightning claws and teleport

+++ a teleporting close combat unit is never a brillient investment... a canny opponent will deny you a good position and will also be a position to gun down your beloved combat troops before they get to charge!
plump for tactical termies unless you've got a land raider or drop pod handy. deep striking 2 heavy flamers is plain nasty, even for meq's to face! (lots of hits, generally wounding on 3's means lots of armour saves!)+++

2 "7" initiate crusader squads with a heavy weapon (1 lascannon and 1 Heavy Bolter)

+++ needs to be 6 strong due to how scoring units work...+++

Vow: Accept all Challenges, No Matter the Odds

This totals 1494 including the points for the infiltration skill on the command squad.


I like the fact I'm much closer to the enemy lines before the first moves and the jump packs being cheaper than vehicles and getting just as far (moving the same distance but my jump infantry can still shoot once they're in range)

+++ closer isn't always better! for example, 'nid players will rub their hands with glee as their higher I troops will be in combat that much sooner with more numbers on their side!

- never discount the usefullness of transports; especially in a templar army!!! anyone who understands how your rightous zeal works will have you charging off in the wrong direction with a single land speeder/vyper so such.
however, taking a transport or two can guard your flanks and prevent that, thus ensuring that your troops only charge forwards!+++

I took two teleport homers in order to bring my terminators to a location that is best needed without worrying about the mishaps that can occur.

with the Marshal, Master of Sanctity, 10 Sword Brethren, 10 initiates, 10 initiate assault marines, and 5 terminators... that makes a pretty heavy hitting force and once they're in close combat, my sloggers can move up in support. They will be shooting at targets while the others are getting in though.

+++ heavy hitting, but small! even a few casulties will become a disadvantage... use the cheaper neophytes to bulk out your numbers.+++

The vehicles are kind of scary being that artillery, tanks, and heavy weapons can focus on two or three targets and take all of them out in just a couple of turns.

the two biggest things your list lacks;
a) numbers!
b) anti-tank/MC capabilities

you need power fists in your combat squads... yes they go last, but they're on squad members and thus are extremely difficult to single out. the fist will save you from encounters with dreads & wraithlords, while turning 'fexes & daemon princes into mince-meat!

anti-tank... 1 lascannon isn't going to do much good. dreadnought/s, land speeder/s with multi-meltas, bike squads with meltaguns, meltaguns in all your squads. templars might be stuck with mainly short-ranged anti-tank, but it's bloody deadly when it gets in range!

cheers!

[sjclem1]

Thank you for the advice Experiment, shows you the flaws of a rookie player too. Your advice really helps.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by sjclem1

Thank you for the advice Experiment, shows you the flaws of a rookie player too. Your advice really helps.

no problem! we all began as rookies originally, and i know that i was once guilty of over-tooling my HQ's for example...

as for how many neophytes to put into squads, don't have any more than a 2:1 initiate:neophyte ratio or you'll get hosed by the mixed armour rules...
a 20 man squad may look awsome and quite imposing, but against a crafty opponent, they'll use the mixed armour rules to quickly waste a large portion of your unit!

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

Originally Posted by sjclem1

After talking to a few people, we came up with that same conclusion. However, instead of more heavy weapons we're looking into melta-bombs and possibly a plasma-cannon in the front line squads.

I don't know about the power fists or thunder hammers. I want to utilize my initiative to pound quickly and not end up being last in the round. Is the power fist worth losing the initiative?

In big squads were you have enough troops to take on the attack backs by the enemy you shold be able to use them effectively just make sure they dont have enough attacks to wipe out your squad orwould have to be really likely to. Which is harder for space marines but with black templars I know you can get some really big crusader squads of like 10 iniates 10 brethern (is that right?). Which basically nothing can really eat through the basic troops to get to the fists.

[Lord Erak Grimnar]

Originally Posted by experiment 626

greetings & welcome to holy terra! i'll include my thoughts in your list



the two biggest things your list lacks;
a) numbers!
b) anti-tank/MC capabilities

you need power fists in your combat squads... yes they go last, but they're on squad members and thus are extremely difficult to single out. the fist will save you from encounters with dreads & wraithlords, while turning 'fexes & daemon princes into mince-meat!

anti-tank... 1 lascannon isn't going to do much good. dreadnought/s, land speeder/s with multi-meltas, bike squads with meltaguns, meltaguns in all your squads. templars might be stuck with mainly short-ranged anti-tank, but it's bloody deadly when it gets in range!

cheers!

You don't use the mixed armour rule for the High marshal remember in combat he counts as an independant character so the attacks on him cant be made by the squad.

Absolutely NO idea why that did not properly quote

[Lord Commander Erus]

Originally Posted by Lord Erak Grimnar

You don't use the mixed armour rule for the High marshal remember in combat he counts as an independant character so the attacks on him cant be made by the squad.

Absolutely NO idea why that did not properly quote

Wrong.. If he joins or is attached to a unit the mixed armor DOES come into effect.

[experiment 626]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus.

Wrong.. If he joins or is attached to a unit the mixed armor DOES come into effect.

only for shooting purposes does he counts as part of the squad.

in the assault phase, an IC is always treated as a seperate unit, so he/she/it must always be in direct base-to-base contact to fight!
my point about the artificer armour being next to useless in assaults is because 99% of the stuff you'll likely want your higher I character to fight, (ie: power toy/fist wielding sergeants/champions, MC's, enemy characters etc...) will simply ignore his fancy 2+ save anyways! (making the invulnerable save the thing to really look at spending the pts on...)

cheers!