Commissar Ciaphias Cain

[GeneralSturnn]

Alright, from reading the books, I'm gonna try out some rules here, anyone have some suggestions, please add them.


Commissar Ciaphas Cain

any Imperial Guard Army having 1500 points and up may take Commissar Cain.

The points cost are for both Cain and Jurgen, as they usually tend to be found together, they both must start together.

Points:125, WS:7, BS:5, S:4, T:3, W:3, I:5, A:4, Ld:10, Sv:4+

Wargear: Carapace Armor, ccw, Bolt Pistol

Options: none, Commissar Cain only has what he has.

Special rules:

Fearless: Commissar Ciaphas Cain is an interesting character, being cowardly in most situations, however, being close to several squads makes him fearless thus making all squads 6" around him completely fearless.

Coward: Commissar Cain will inadvertently seek to away from danger as long as possible, so when a single unit of Guardsmen goes down from 10 soldiers to 4 or less, he least and advances to the next unit within 6 inches, the unit he left will suffer a 2- modifier for having a hero of the Imperium flee from their side and MUST take an immediate morale check.

Commissar: Commissar Cain will not carry out the "Summery Execution" Commissar Special rules as he sees it's pointless to kill without benefit(usually for his survival) but he ill carry out the "It's For your on good!" special rule hen dealing with Psykers.



Jurgen

Points: ---(MUST be used with Cain) WS:4, BS:5, S:4, T:3, W:4, I:4, Ld:10, Sv:5+


Wargear: Lasgun, Frag&Krak Grenades.

Options: Jurgen may take any of the following, Carapace Armour, Meltagun, ccw.

Special Rules:

Stuck like glue: Jurgen has never left Cains side in a battle(though he's left on more then one occasion to grab a quick snack in times of relative peace) as such, Jurgen MUST be within 2 inches of Commissar Cain as he follows the Commissar everywhere.

Blank: Jurgen has been found to be one of few humans who possess the "Pariah" gene, that makes them effectively soulless, all Psykers attempting to sue a Psychic power on the Squad Jurgen is in, cannot use their power at all if the Psyker is engaged in Close Combat with Jurgen, he has been rendered harmless, only one of the more powerful psykers can attack him or the squad he's attached to(like a Greater Daemon if it has any Psychic abilities)

[Ion Raptor]

I love it, especially the high WS to represent Cain's sword skill.

Now we need one for Amberley Vail

[JoeGuardsman]

I have had some ideas for Ciaphas Cain rules for a while. I think WS 7 is too high. He can fight on par with a Khorne Berzerker but he isn't better than one. I'd have to say that he is actually only WS 5.

Cain Special rules:

Unknown Hive World. Cain always seems to end up underground and using his sense of direction. He learned this sense of direction growing up as a child in a hive city (despite the detailed memoirs he has provided no one knows what hive this actually was). Cain and one unit you control may start the game in reserves and enter the game using deep strike to represent him coming out of a tunnel system. Cains sense of preservation means that you will not have to scatter during this deep strike and you may place him where you please.

Coward. Cain is not happy unless he can keep a good amount of bodies between him and the enemy. Cain must join a unit whenever possible and will move towards the closest unit and join it if he is not part of a unit at the start of the turn. Cain does not confer his LD to the unit he is with.

Unlucky. Cain's most heroic moments were entirely by accident and Cain was merely trying to get out of the way only to discover that he fell into worse trouble. When Cain's unit fails a morale check they do not flee towards your board edge. They flee in a random direction determined by the scatter dice. If the unit runs into an enemy unit they count as charging. The unit automatically rallies after the move regardless of any restrictions to the normal rally rules.

Savior. Jurgen has saved the Commissar many times using his trusty Melta Gun. In close combat Jurgen may choose to shoot his melta gun instead of fight using his attacks. Jurgen may make one shot with the meltagun at any model engaged with Commissar Cain. This is carried out at Jurgens initiative value.

I don't think the stats should be that different from regular statistics for humans and I think there should be an option to use a Salamander.

[Ion Raptor]

His WS should remain high as i believe he has fought a Greater Daemon, Hive Tyrant, and Chaos Marine in close combat before.

[JoeGuardsman]

He fought a large Slaaneshi daemon, not anything as powerful as a greater daemon, a Genestealer Partriarch and a World Eater berzerker. He did not defeat any of them in single combat (World eater I forget how he beat) he merely held them at bay. WS 5 is more than enough to do that and it doesn't make him unreasonably good. In order to beat most angry opponents he merely holds them off for a while until Jurgen heroically hits them with a melta gun shot that is close enough for Cain to get a deep tan.

[Ion Raptor]

Agreed, 5 should be enough for most opponents that Cain would engage. I don't have a IG codex so I don't know how much better that is then a standard Guardsman or normal Commissar.

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

Okay, let's see.

He has a laspistol, not a bolt. Sorry, but it always pisses me off when people get that wrong. He says several times, in the books, that he would never give up his pistol, as he has become so used to the weight and feel of the weapon that he is more deadly with it than without. He even refused a hellpistol, even though it was far more powerful, and has proven time and again that it is the match for any other gun. Except, maybe, a lascannon. Maybe.

Vail said that she has seen him snipe targets far beyond it's standard operational range, so should he get a range bonus?

Jurgen will almost always have a meltagun in the books at the very least, so should he get a point cost reduction for it?

The Blank state doesn't cripple the Psyker, just it's powers, so they shouldn't be able to target his squad at all, unless they have either a high enough points cost, are an HQ, or are of certain size.

Jurgen is completely unimaginative, and extremely phlegmatic, so he should have a reduced Leadership. On the other hand, he will never break morale, as he is completely loyal to Cain, and looks up to him almost as much as the Emperor, believing he could never possibly be wrong. He will only fall back if Cain orders it.

And he should have some bonus against enemies (and maybe a debuff to allies!) due to his... intense aroma!

EDIT: and it should be noted that almost every major melee enemy he has fought and killed, including the World Eater Berserker, the Slaaneshi Daemon, and the Broodlord, have been killed by Jurgen. The only discrepancy I can think of is the CC Hive Tyrant in Death Or Glory, which was felled by a Chimera.

He did, however, manage to fight and best a Chaos Space Marine, killing it personally with his chainsword..

[GeneralSturnn]

How does this sound?

Commissar Ciaphas Cain
"Well then, I seem to recall a rather pleasant little restaurant not far from here. Care to see if it's still standing?"

— Commissar Ciaphas Cain after the Chaos attack on Adumbria +++



any Imperial Guard Army having 1500 points and up may take Commissar Cain.

The points cost are for both Cain and Jurgen, as they usually tend to be found together, they both must start together.

Points:125, WS:5, BS:6, S:4, T:3, W:3, I:5, A:4, Ld:10, Sv:4+

Wargear: Carapace Armor, ccw, Laspistol

Options: none, Commissar Cain only has what he has.

Special rules:

Fearless: Commissar Ciaphas Cain is an interesting character, being cowardly in most situations, however, being close to several squads makes him fearless thus making all squads 6" around him completely fearless.

Coward: Commissar Cain will inadvertently seek to away from danger as long as possible, so when a single unit of Guardsmen goes down from 10 soldiers to 4 or less, he leaves and MUST advance to the next unit within 6 inches, the unit he left will suffer a 2- modifier for having a hero of the Imperium flee from their side and MUST take an immediate morale check.

Commissar: Commissar Cain will not carry out the "Summery Execution" Commissar Special rules as he sees it's pointless to kill without benefit(usually for his survival) but he ill carry out the "It's For your on good!" special rule when dealing with Psykers.



Jurgen

Points: ---(MUST be used with Cain) WS:4, BS:5, S:4, T:3, W:4, I:4, Ld:10, Sv:5+


Wargear: Lasgun, Frag&Krak Grenades, Meltagun(he can only use the Meltagun or Lasgun in s single shooting phase, not both)

Options: Jurgen may take any of the following, Carapace Armour, ccw.

Special Rules:

Stuck like glue: Jurgen has never left Cains side in a battle(though he's left on more then one occasion to grab a quick snack in times of relative peace) as such, Jurgen MUST be within 2 inches of Commissar Cain as he follows the Commissar everywhere.

Blank: Jurgen has been found to be one of few humans who possess the "Pariah" gene, that makes them effectively soulless, all Psykers attempting to use a Psychic power on the Squad Jurgen is in, cannot use their power at all, if the Psyker is engaged in Close Combat with Jurgen, he has been rendered harmless, only one of the more powerful psykers can attack him or the squad he's attached to(HQ choices with Psychic powers, and anything that would be powerful enough)



Also, why do I see him using a Bolt Pistol in "Duty Calls"?


then here's one I found online about cain(rules)

Cain.
PTS WS:5 BS:4 S:3 T:3 W:2 I:4 A:2 LD:2 SV:4+
95

Equipment
chain sword, las pistol, carapace armour
Cain must be taken exactly as he is here and may not be given addtional war gear or equipment.

*CAINS COURAGE
Cain is a rather unscrupulous (sp) charachter and is usually deciding on how to best serve himself rather than the Emperor. As such his courgage usually reflects on how many meat shields are in front of him protecting his skin. To reflect this Cain has a basic leadership of 5. However for every two men int he squad with him it will be upgraded by 1
I.E. If there are two men with Cain he will gain +1 to LD 6
four men he will gain +2 to Ld 7 and so on and so forth, This can be bulked up to no more than ld 10
round fractions down by the way.
Cain's aide Jurgen gives Cain +1 to his Ld and as long as the aide is with the commisar Cains Ld will never drop below 6.
Cain is however very image conciouss and keeps up his facade as a hero. to reflect this Cain will only use his own Ld if there is no unbroken squad within 10" of Cain himself. If there is a squad within 10" Cain can use there Ld to rally.

Cain will not execute officers who run away.

Heroic
Cain is regarded as a hero by the people serving under him and his men are utterly devoted to him. To represent this whenever Cain takes a wound from shooting or CC roll a dice, on a roll of 5 or 6 allocate the wound to a trooper (not jurgen) within 2" to show the troops diving in front of their commisar to protect him. If no trooper is within 2" of Cain then he takes the wound himself.

Expert swordsman
Cain is one of the best swordsmen in the Imperium with a unique instintive fighting style rather than a practised one, to show this the first person in CC to attack Cain loses one attack for the first round of combat only as Cain parries the blow.

Hidden loyalties.
Though Cain is a self admitted lying self serving coward there is more to him than he gives himself credit for and he does genuinely care for the men and women under his command. Nominate to yourself one member of the squad (paint the underside of the base or write it down), if that trooper dies then Cain will fight with +1 strength and +1 attack for the remainder of the battle as the outraged commisar takes his agression out. This will also occur if Jurgen dies though Cain must also pass a leadership (the modified one if applicable) check first as he panics when his loyal friend dies.

Veteran.
Cain has over a hundred years of service in one war zone tot he next including several incursions with the Inqiustion under Amberly Veil. As such he has fought every major enemy in the Imperium. To reflect this every man int he squad may re roll any missed to hit rolls in shooting.

The best of the rest.
Cain like to make sure he can keep his skin intact as mucha s he can. As such he will always attach himself to the best troops in the army. Cain can only be attached to either storm troopers or veterans, if niether are available he can not be taken. (assume he squirmed his way out of the main firing line and set up at the back of the army in relative safety.) Jurgen will of course accompany him, the squad he attaches to will lose the ability to deep strike though they can still infiltrate.

Jurgen

PTS WS BS S T I W A LD SV
50 3 3 3 3 3 1 2 7+ 4+

Equipment.
multi melta, laspistol, crapace armour.
Jurgen must be taken exactly as he is here and may not be given any other equipment or wargear.

Jurgen and Cain must be taken as a pair and int he same squad

as long as Cain is alive Jurgen is immune to Psycology test i.e. pinning.

Jurgen is an untrained psychic blank, though unable to use his abilities aggressivly, no psychic powers may be cast without taking a ld ship test at -1 if Jurgen is within 8 inches, this test is taken after the leadership check for making psychic casts is done, however if failed the model does NOT suffer a perils of the warp. Tyranids within synapse range must test against there own leadership whether a synapse is in range or not if they lose in close combat or at shooting attacks. But only as long as at least half the squad is within 8 inches of Jurgen.

Cain knows od Jurgens abilities to stop psychers reading his mind as such Cain will always try to stay in clsoe contact with Jurgen and so will never move more than 3 inches from him

hope you like the rules tell me what you think.

[qwertyblarg]

i think if hes in a squad above 50% strength cain would be ld10 due to him not wanting to lose face. or the squad should be fearles due to his reputation whereas he has a low leadership....

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

Okay, let's see...

General Sturnn, the reason you see Cain using a bolt pistol on Duty Calls, is the same reason he uses a bolt pistol on every cover. The covers don't have that much to do with the story, Sandy Mitchell was going for a 'propaganda poster' feel to them. If you notice, he's considerably bulkier in all of them, not to mention Death or Glory, in which he looks like Hulk Hogan mixed with Mr T, has a chainsword that makes an eviscerator look like it isn't compensating for anything, he's wielding two pistols (something he never does), he's got a banner that's long enough to mark a spot from space, and is surrounded by dozens of bloodthirsty Orks, most of which are, in fact, already dead.

And he's smiling. He's surrounded by Orks, and he's smiling.


On rules notes, he should be allowed to be fielded in an army without stormtroopers or veterans. He will, of course, attach himself to them if he can, but in several books he is, in fact, attached to less experienced squads.

Should he be limited to the Vallhallan 597th?

Should he be allowed to field in any army (assumed that it is post-service with the 597th, as it is sad several times that it was not his first, nor his last, posting, but it was his main, taking up well over half, or three quarters, of his military career)
but receive bonuses for being in a Valhallan army?

It should also be noted that he never attaches himself to a Command Squad, as he sees himself as in the Army, not a part of the Army. He doesn't seem to realize that his troopers were as loyal to him as they were.

Should he be allowed to be fielded as a Command Squad, with Jurgen and bodyguards?
Just a thought. Not necessarily any merit in it.

He is willing to execute certain individuals, but only under extreme circumstances, i.e, Trooper Kelp. On the other hand, given that there is no clear way to show such circumstances, the ability should still be removed for any case but Psykers.

Damnit, why am I suddenly tempted to draw up rules for the Vallhallan 597th, just to give him an army to use?

i.e, no Psykers, limited Techpriests, Veteran, no ogryns, Ratlings, Rough Riders, or Conscripts, Mixed Unit (allowing for standard Guardsmen, as well as converted Female Guardsmen.) Valhallan, giving them a bonus on snowy areas, but a debuff in warmer climates, Insubordinate Sentinels, maybe something to give them a chance to refuse orders under certain circumstances?

[JoeGuardsman]

All of these write ups take the Cain character into a bit of a powerhouse fighter and not to the funny interesting type that I'd like to see.

A human shouldn't have BS 6 or S 4 and I can't find anyone in the game that breaks those rules.

One final note on things Cain has fought and bested even though he never would be able to in a real game situation. Ork Warlord. This he didn't even use Jurgen's help because the melta gun was missing in this book.

[Lord Aulianas Darakathos]

True. I'd forgotten about that.

Anyway, if we wanted to powerhouse him, we'd give him an anti-hero instakill. And even I think that's a bad idea.

But to be fair, he has actually managed to kill everything he's fought in hand to hand, no matter how more powerful it is.

He's got that 'Hero Power' and 'I'm The Narrator I Can't Die' stuff going on.

[JoeGuardsman]

Yeah I'd like it if he could take on the old role of Commissar Yarrick from 2nd ed. I can't win a fight but I can hold you here and dance with you. Yarrick would never win a CC but he'd just get up every time you took him out and the force field could stop even that from being necessary. With Special Characters and Psykers starting to take over the game again Cain and Jurgen could be a great for balancing the playing field.

[GeneralSturnn]

My rules were the ones at the top of that last post, those rules below what I said:"Also, why do I see him using a Bolt Pistol in "Duty Calls"?


then here's one I found online about cain(rules)"

I found those on Tau online(or warseer) or something like that, I forgot which.

[Stubber]

When used alongside Catachans or other Deathworld veterans Cain should be immune to the "Oops, Sorry Sir!" rule (Roll a dice before the game, on a one the commissar may not be used.) as he makes it his business to be liked by as many people as possible.

I think he should only have Ld8 when on his own but confers the fearless rules upon any Guard unit he joins and therefore benefits from the rule himself. (As a practiced disembler he will always attempt to uphold his reputation.)

Jurgen should have the option to upgrade a lasgun to a melta-gun as he only takes it out when things really get hairy.

[JoeGuardsman]

If Cain get stuck into a real full on battle it is pretty hairy.

[GeneralSturnn]

rules update:

Commissar Ciaphas Cain
"Well then, I seem to recall a rather pleasant little restaurant not far from here. Care to see if it's still standing?"

— Commissar Ciaphas Cain after the Chaos attack on Adumbria +++



any Imperial Guard Army having 1500 points and up may take Commissar Cain.

The points cost are for both Cain and Jurgen, as they usually tend to be found together, they both must start together.

Points:125, WS:5, BS:5, S:3, T:3, W:3, I:5, A:4, Ld:8, Sv:4+

Wargear: Carapace Armor, ccw, Laspistol

Options: none, Commissar Cain only has what he has.

Special rules:

Fearless: Commissar Ciaphas Cain is an interesting character, being cowardly in most situations, however, being close to several squads makes him fearless thus making all squads 6" around him completely fearless.

Coward: Commissar Cain will inadvertently seek to away from danger as long as possible, so when a single unit of Guardsmen goes down from 10 soldiers to 4 or less, he leaves and MUST advance to the next unit within 6 inches, the unit he left will suffer a 2- modifier for having a hero of the Imperium flee from their side and MUST take an immediate morale check.

Commissar: Commissar Cain will not carry out the "Summery Execution" Commissar Special rules as he sees it's pointless to kill without benefit(usually for his survival) but he ill carry out the "It's For your on good!" special rule when dealing with Psykers.

Heroic
Cain is regarded as a hero by the people serving under him and his men are utterly devoted to him. To represent this whenever Cain takes a wound from shooting or CC roll a dice, on a roll of 5 or 6 allocate the wound to a trooper (not jurgen) within 2" to show the troops diving in front of their commisar to protect him. If no trooper is within 2" of Cain then he takes the wound himself.

Expert swordsman
Cain is one of the best swordsmen in the Imperium with a unique instintive fighting style rather than a practised one, to show this the first person in CC to attack Cain loses one attack for the first round of combat only as Cain parries the blow.

Hidden loyalties.
Though Cain is a self admitted lying self serving coward there is more to him than he gives himself credit for and he does genuinely care for the men and women under his command. Nominate to yourself one member of the squad (paint the underside of the base or write it down), if that trooper dies then Cain will fight with +1 strength and +1 attack for the remainder of the battle as the outraged commisar takes his agression out. This will also occur if Jurgen dies though Cain must also pass a leadership (the modified one if applicable) check first as he panics when his loyal friend dies.



Jurgen

Points: ---(MUST be used with Cain) WS:4, BS:5, S:4, T:3, W:4, I:4, Ld:10, Sv:5+

as long as Cain is alive Jurgen is immune to Psycology test i.e. pinning.


Wargear: Lasgun, Frag&Krak Grenades, Meltagun(he can only use the Meltagun or Lasgun in s single shooting phase, not both)

Options: Jurgen may take any of the following, Carapace Armour, ccw.

Special Rules:

Stuck like glue: Jurgen has never left Cains side in a battle(though he's left on more then one occasion to grab a quick snack in times of relative peace) as such, Jurgen MUST be within 2 inches of Commissar Cain as he follows the Commissar everywhere.

Blank: Jurgen has been found to be one of few humans who possess the "Pariah" gene, that makes them effectively soulless, all Psykers attempting to use a Psychic power on the Squad Jurgen is in, cannot use their power at all, if the Psyker is engaged in Close Combat with Jurgen, he has been rendered harmless, only one of the more powerful psykers can attack him or the squad he's attached to(HQ choices with Psychic powers, and anything that would be powerful enough)

[Scoutmaster477]

A big Thanks to everyone in this tread. I printed out the final stats and adding this hero to my Valhallans. Now for the Jurgen figure how do I model in his smell?