Old Rules

[TheKiller333]

I'm sure you've all heard it. But why on Earth did they change the rules from the old 40K!? They were alot more strategic, even if slightly more complicated. E.g cover was actually useful for Space Marines.. or 1 man dying actually hurt you. The new rules just let you run forward with a bunch of your men firing. (Forgive me for the ranting xD) I still have the old rulebook, and comparing it too the new one it makes games alot more fun.. and a bit longer . I tried playing a game with my friend with the old rules, and then with the new. Guess which we prefered? Love your input on this.

-Chris

[Stubber]

GW is just trying to make the rules easier to understand so they won't have to write as many FAQ sections.
Unfortunatly with the advant of RAW and several poorly writen rules GW failed in their goal and took away from the game too.

That's why specialist games are so good. The rules designers weren't afraid to go nuts on the complicated rules.
(In Inquisitor you apparently need a calculator on occasion to work out all the dice modifiers)

[TheKiller333]

And that's why i play Necromunda more.. but noone plays it anymore It still uses the old warhammer rules, just tweaked a bit. W00t!

[Khadhar'phak]

I too miss the old days of 3rd ed. But in the wave of all these youngsters (not that I can talk being 16. I am going gray though) GW decided that they needed to make it more accessible. In doing so they got rid of so many good things (Chaos rhino rushes anyone? How hilarious were they!?). In the end, you just have to decide how you play. I tried my hand at 2nd ed rules. I loved it! If only I could get a rule book set...

[TheKiller333]

Yep, and i can't really complain. I'm only 14 :P Yet, when i discovered the old rules, i just couldn't get away from them (I was introduced to the old rules first). They did take too much away from the old rules, even if they thought it was for the best.

[Templar Mikeel]

Yah, I guess us youngsters don't get the true 40k experience...

[Stubber]

Originally Posted by TheKiller333

And that's why i play Necromunda more.. but noone plays it anymore It still uses the old warhammer rules, just tweaked a bit. W00t!

I still have Necro campaigns with a few of my friends.
The only thing in our way now is a lack of buildings.

[Killermoose]

I only play games instore, so I don't play any specialist games. Shame, they sound like a lot of fun.

[TheKiller333]

Originally Posted by Stubber

I still have Necro campaigns with a few of my friends.
The only thing in our way now is a lack of buildings.

Aww damned. :P. Noone here seems to like it, and the nearest person who plays Necromunda to me is.. uhm.. 120 miles away perhaps? Plus he's my sister's boyfriend, so i'm supposed to be scared of him xD. And the people in the nearest GW to me (15 miles) are not particulary "pleasant".

[kid_happy]

I think the main reason for the rules changes were to allow for quicker games with more models (roughly twice as many I believe).

The games were fun but I do perfer the current set. Here are some of the main reasons (and keep in mind these are completely personal, I'm not the sort of guy to tell you lasagna is the best meal around because I love it and you're an idiot if you dont agree!)...

1) Shooting: It got pretty tetious getting down to eye level to see who was visible to who and what sort of cover they got. Imagine constantly asking your opponent if it looked like more than half the model was visible. I knew one guy who built these things with mirrors so you could look down instead of crouching all the time! Constantly debating whether someone was in cover or behind heavy cover was ust asking for bickering if you weren't playing someone that was a relaxed player.

2) Modifiers: Modifiers to "to-hit" rolls and armour saves. Most of the modifiers to save were merely based on weapon or model strength.

3) Psychic Phase: It really felt like the game slipped into a mini game at this stage. Shuffle the deck draw your cards, back and forth dispelling. The game flow really changed. Also, if I remeber correctly, when one side had no psycher it was harder to counter powers so you really wanted to go into every game with a Psycher.

4) Movement: When I first played 2nd edition it was with squats. Moving 3" was quite a drag and getting from one are of terrain to another was a real pain. Even 4" wasn't very far.

5) Cover saves: I saw in the OP that part of the Marines using cover. I'm pretty sure they want marines to start coming out of cover and advancing towards the enemy or at least not be so afraid of the incoming fire. Makes them a little more heroic and more fluffy.

6) HTH - Though detailed it was prehaps too detailed. Combat only when in base to base, parrying attacks, sooo many different close combat weapons with different rules. I can only imagine how many different flame wars there would be over weapons being too strong/over priced useless over the forums.

7)misc.. Templates (not having 10 seperate ones for different flamers, gernades/psychic powers).

All and all it was fun but I like fielding the larger armies with less emphasis on tricked out Heroes. The current game has been easier to introduce to my friends and the simpler rules allow for fewer exploits. The down side for the current rule is that you lose some of the details that were neat in smaller battles. Kill teams and maybe combat patrol could use some of the smaller fire fight flavour.

I say get your buddy's and play which ever set you enjoy more. It's your afternoon/evening after all. I'd even like to see someone port the Warmachine rules over for 40k. That might be fun....

[Templar Mikeel]

I remember hearing that the older versions used a vortex grenade and template as well as a heavy flamer template. Can you verify this please?

[wolfpack]

Yeah vortex grenades were fun...I still have the template for them...hehehe...I am currently going through all my old stuff to see if I still have all the old rules books...(even the RT one) am not sure as my ex-wife was a real class 'A' B!^@# at the end of our marriage and sold some of my stuff on e-bay...

[kid_happy]

Originally Posted by Templar Mikeel

I remember hearing that the older versions used a vortex grenade and template as well as a heavy flamer template. Can you verify this please?

There was definately a vortex gernade template and you could pretty much guarantee that both you and your opponent had one, it was the best way to deal with enemy heroes. I don't remember if it moved and shrank like the plasma gernades. I could dig up my book from storage. Pretty sure I still have it.

The heavy flamer template, I don't remember that one, but I don't completely trust my memory. There was definately a small flame template and that was used for the hand flamers and I think Flamers of Tzeentch.

[wolfpack]

Yeah the vortex moved about...and disipated after a few turns...it was one of those d6 rolls you made at the start of each players turn (I think) and then of course the scatter dice determined where it went...LOL...(still not as trustworthy as the foot of mork but what the heck...as for the heavy flamers template...that was an add-on after the first revision to the sisters came out...2nd Ed I think...it was a big double template had a nice sweeping range to it (you could cover an entire squad front with that one template 'any model under the template suffers a wound on 4+ on a D6 armor saves allowed as normal)...mass crispies on a 4+...LOL...those were the days...

[Perturabo]

Rogue trader rules

begining of each turn (irrespective of which sides turn it is) roll a D10 (Rogue trader used the full array of dice not just a D6)
1-3 The Vortex field Vanishes.
4-7 The field remains unchanged.
8 The field moves off D6" in a random direction.
9 The field slits into 2 fields of equal size-roll again for each one.
10 the vortex instantly expands to 3"radius and disapears, leaving a giant crater.

So you could end up with a field splitting several times and its subsequent fields splitting and then them expanding to a 6" template then vanishing-pretty devastating!!

Virus Missiles/Grenades-my favourite! (the gift that keeps on giving)

Only targets in sealed suits/vehicles/buildings are safe-respirators are no protection.

All targets which are hit are killed-no saving throw (there were no Invulnerable saves in these days)

Role a D6 for each model killed this is the distance the mutated virus spreads from there body, immediatley roll to hit all targets in this area, this may include targets who survived the first wave continue rolling new effect radii and new casualties until no hits are scored or until no potential targets remain.

[JoeGuardsman]

The micro management involved in 2nd ed. 40k made for a fun experience. Talking through 4 some odd years off experience with 2nd though the current game is much more tactical and allows for alot more different kinds of warfare, i.e. there was no such thing as a close range firefight, which is why I love rapid fire and not being able to assault.
2nd ed. was a fantastic skirmish game but a strategy war game it was not. This is why Necromunda works so well. It does matter where every one of my 8 gangers are on a table but I do not want to have the same worries about 40 guardsmen and 12 tanks. Also I don't think you guys would complain about the not being able to throw grenades thing if you ever went through a couple of turns of 40k. Imagine a squad of guardsmen throwing grenades. That is ten to hit rolls, almost as many scatter rolls, to wound rolls, and armor save modifiers and that was only one squad. I stopped throwing grenades because the game already took too long without that.
Great game though tons of fun and I go back to it once in a while, but 3rd was all for the better really.

[Templar Mikeel]

Would it be possible to scan the vortex and heavy flamer templates in and post their pictures on here? Also, would Games Workshop mind if you posted all the old rules for vortex grenades? Sounds like some crazy games with those 'nades.

[wolfpack]

I don't think there would be an issue as long as they were'nt being posted for resale...(as this is a personally run forum and the rules became public domain when they were released...and the templates were offered for copy for personal use) besides...as a reference point for ALL things 40K this would be the idea place to post something like that...Archives for rules...whatcha think Ikarus, Cag?? Maybe we could Errata and bring them inline with the new rules just for chits and grins?

[hairyyahoo]

i can confirm that there were 3 seperate flamer templates; hand flamer, flamer, heavy flamer.

i can confirm that andy chamber apologised on more than one occasion for virus grenades which, when combined with jump packs, spelt first turn wins against any non marine armies.

i can also confirm that a 2nd ed game lasted about an hour and a half per 1000pts. if playing a 2000-3000 game you had to set aside a whole day.

[DeAd_cOmMaNdO]

i used to love my thudd gun template.. of course, i was a tyranid player

other great things were anti plant grenades, which my mate used to use all the time and (dare i say it?) Overwatch!

i relly dont think there was much micromanagement involved in 2n ed. 1st ed, yes, but not 2nd. just because the game had hundreds of cards and templates, doesnt mean there was much involved. vets didnt even have to use the cards, in the same way as anyone who knows what hes doing nowadays doesnt need to consult a chart when rolling a 3 to glance or whatever

[Stubber]

All these phrases like 'Overwatch, anti-plant grenades and so-on' sound like they come straight out of a Necromunda or Inquisitor game.

I didn't have the pleasure of ever playing 2nd edition. I only started 40k near the end of the last edition...which was it, the 4th?

[kid_happy]

Originally Posted by hairyyahoo

i can confirm that andy chamber apologised on more than one occasion for virus grenades which, when combined with jump packs, spelt first turn wins against any non marine armies.

Can you even imagine what the message boards would be like if that was now?