Some criticism and clarification.

[Dravenguild]

We all have at one point or another thumbed through the SM codex, now I have a few questions about how divergent you can actually make chapters.

1- Can you have your own Relic/Weapon/Unit that is specific to just your army? Example: I play a divergent (Extremely) chapter with 2 pos and two neg. Can I also have a squad completely and utterly dedicated to my army? such as the Ultrasmurfs Honor guard, Death company, Long fangs, Tyrannic veterans ect.

As long as they comply with appropriate points and opponent allows use?

2- For weapons, can I have a single choice of something vaguly resembling a daemon weapon? I have (or I should say had) a veteran equipped with a special hammer, but rather than just be a thunder hammer I gave it stats like this:

Power weapon, +2 strength for combat and penetration. Of course, only one would be allowed in the army and only my highest ranked would wield it.

Also lastly, can I make my own Chapter specific character? As long as appropriate points are taken into consideration and opponent allows use?

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Well, if your opponent lets you use it, you can do what you please! As for tournaments, both are a definite no. However, in strict rules terms, the Ultramarines Tyranid War Veterans and the Honor Guard are both Ultramarines-only. And since there are no rules for making your own characters, they're a no, too. But if you're just playing a "friendly" game with some pals, making up some rules and trying them out is lots of fun!

[Dravenguild]

Don't you think that kind of hinders custom chapters? Them not being allowed to have any extra function and no characters at all? They should release a codex/rulebook for making custom units.

Originally Posted by Inquisitor Rosenadel

Well, if your opponent lets you use it, you can do what you please! As for tournaments, both are a definite no. However, in strict rules terms, the Ultramarines Tyranid War Veterans and the Honor Guard are both Ultramarines-only. And since there are no rules for making your own characters, they're a no, too. But if you're just playing a "friendly" game with some pals, making up some rules and trying them out is lots of fun!

Incorrect. Blood Angels have an Honor Guard selection as well.

[r4wr89]

hmm...dravenguild, some of it is a bit murky, but in terms of pick-up games, lots of experimental/non-codex things can be tried, as long as it is with opponent's consent.

however, if you're playing with more serious players, or actually in a GW hobby shop, you might want to stick to the rules more closely. however, there is nothing to stop you from creating your own character. that is perfectly acceptable, as long as all the points for the weapons and upgrades are counted. you don't even need your opponent's consent, as long as the codex is followed.

as for the custom hammer, i think that one is a little more iffy. if you're playing with your friends, and they allow it, why not ? but strictly following codex rules, you might run into some people with problems with that. [the dark blade, which resembles the hammer, IS an awesome weapon though! haha]

so basically, if it's in the codex, it's perfectly fine. everything else you should check with your opponent first, to make sure it's okay with them, and it might be a good idea to have one more rigid army list, and one more "experimental," ie with custom-made weapons, etc., in the case that your opponent doesn't allow your changes.

happy gaming! :]
-ant

[experiment 626]

best way to integrate your own background and such, use the "counts as" rules!
for example, say you want to play a 'lysander's wing army' but hate painting yellow? (who doesn't honestly?!) you simply use the rules as stated for lysander & the imp fists traits as standard but paint them up and call them whatever you want...
as long as you're following the proper rules, no one can argue. ('counts as' is even tournament legal here in north armerica!)

now if you want to use characters and such you've come up with yourself, then yes you'll need your opponent to okay it first... (and of corse you couldn't take such things to a tournament)

as for wanting a daemon weapon, its very possible and quite legal too! play relictors or any other 'radical' chapter! (sadly no traits, but some of the stuff from the 'chaoticians & cataclyisims' article is damn tasty!)

cheers!

[Dravenguild]

I like you 626!

Originally Posted by Dravenguild

I like you 626!

Yeah, she's useful from time to time I guess.

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

Yeah, she's useful from time to time I guess.

I'd say more than from time to time... I'd say... well...

*quickly runs away before Stitch gets angry*

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by Lord Commander Erus

Incorrect. Blood Angels have an Honor Guard selection as well.

Well, yes, but it's not the same as the Ultramarines one. They all get their Axes of Ultramar and an Ancient and all that good stuff.

[Dravenguild]

so could I take an honour guard that uses the same rules as the blood angels? HG minus of course the black rage

[masterofweirdness]

Originally Posted by Dravenguild

so could I take an honour guard that uses the same rules as the blood angels? HG minus of course the black rage

If you wanted... but, its not legal.

Oh, and I've looked at the Honor Guard, I think they're to expensive for an entire unit of them, but, a couple here and there in a few tact. squads could be useful.

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Originally Posted by masterofweirdness

If you wanted... but, its not legal.

Oh, and I've looked at the Honor Guard, I think they're to expensive for an entire unit of them, but, a couple here and there in a few tact. squads could be useful.

Yeah, masterofwierdness is right, they're a Blood Angels only item. And I forgot about being able to put them in tactical squads and such. That's a really cool option!

[Dravenguild]

That makes no sense, the posts before said yes I could have honor gueard as long as they use the same rules as honor guard, but each honor guard of each chapter is unique! So what is the answer? Can I have a honor guard or not?

[Jericho199]

What they're saying is:

If you want to use the Blood Angels honor guard, your army will have to follow ALL the rules of the blood angels. You don't have to paint them like BA or call them BA, but they'd be using a set of rules that are legal.

What I think you're asking, is if you can cut and paste rules from different chapters to make your own. That you can't do legally.

If I misunderstood then ignore everything I just said :P

[r4wr89]

Originally Posted by Jericho199

What they're saying is:

If you want to use the Blood Angels honor guard, your army will have to follow all the rules of the blood angels. You don't have to paint them like BA or call them BA, but they'd be using a set of rules that are legal.

What I think you're asking, is if you can cut and paste rules from different chapters to make your own. That you can't do legally.

If I misunderstood then ignore everything I just said :P

ooooh i think this confusion is the result of a big misreading on some of our parts. not a big deal though. if you are talking about cutting and pasting rules, like jericho just pointed out, you pretty much aren't able to. it's dissapointing, i know, but if you think over your army for a while you'll decide which directions you want it to go in, whether it be assault, or stealthly or shooty, etc. using a vet squad or something as a "fake" honor guard isn't terrible, is it ? or a command squad, or something like that perhaps ? :]

haha like jericho said though, if we're wrong then disregard my post as well. :]
-ant

[Inquisitor Rosenadel]

Ok, to clarify:

There is a unit in Codex: Space Marines called the "Ultramarines Honour Guard" in the back, right before Marneus Calgar. That is the one you can use if you are playing an army from just the Space Marines Codex, with no Divergent traits whatsoever (because they're supposed to be Ultramarines).

There is a unit in Codex: Blood Angels called an "Honour Guard" which is much different. The Honour Guard is the Blood Angels version of a command squad. They can have jump packs and all other sorts of nasty stuff.

So: if you are using rules from only Codex: Space Marines, then you make take an Ultramarines Honour Guard, but not an Honour Guard. Conversely, if you are using the rules from Codex: Blood Angels, then you may use an Honour Guard, but not an Ultramarines Honour Guard.

I figured color-coding might help keep the different units straight, since their names are so similar.

[Dravenguild]

You insult my intelligence and experience.

I have been playing Warhammer for over 9 years, I think I know what is what.
I am asking if I can use a generic non chapter specific honor guard. Something along the lines of a veteran squad but with the advanced options of an honor guard. Namely marines with Veteran status (Termie honors) led by a hero or Veteran honor guard member.

Since my army is chapter divergent i know i can't take anything specific to other chapters.

what if I had my own honor guard though? One that was loosely tied to another if any.

Originally Posted by Dravenguild

You insult my intelligence and experience.

I have been playing Warhammer for over 9 years, I think I know what is what.
I am asking if I can use a generic non chapter specific honor guard. Something along the lines of a veteran squad but with the advanced options of an honor guard. Namely marines with Veteran status (Termie honors) led by a hero or Veteran honor guard member.

Since my army is chapter divergent i know i can't take anything specific to other chapters.

what if I had my own honor guard though? One that was loosely tied to another if any.

As all of these kind gentlemen have been trying to tell you, no, you can not. Please do not be rude to those only trying to help you.

[r4wr89]

Originally Posted by Dravenguild

You insult my intelligence and experience.

I have been playing Warhammer for over 9 years, I think I know what is what.
I am asking if I can use a generic non chapter specific honor guard. Something along the lines of a veteran squad but with the advanced options of an honor guard. Namely marines with Veteran status (Termie honors) led by a hero or Veteran honor guard member.

Since my army is chapter divergent i know i can't take anything specific to other chapters.

what if I had my own honor guard though? One that was loosely tied to another if any.

okay, sorry. it's not difficult to misread things on forums. the tone of voice and such is quite obviously not evident as it would be in person. none of us are sadistic or anything, or intended to insult anyone so...basically yea, sorry.

and to answer the question, i agree with erus and most of the other guys who have taken their time to reply. however, i think it wouldn't be unacceptable to take the ultramarine honor guard and change the names of the axes and banners and whatever else they get as long as you don't use any chapter traits. just clarify to your opponent that you are in essence using ultramarine rules.

also, it wouldn't be that difficult to convert the ideas you want into a veteran squad. a lot of those guys are able to get special weapons, power weapons, etc. and just give the vet termie honors and some extra wargear.

[Dravenguild]

That was what I was going to do first, but the codex didn't say if you could give all veterans terminator honors.

I'm sorry for being rude, but it felt like everyone was talking down to me.

[r4wr89]

no problem. honestly, it wasn't the intention to talk down to anyone. anyways, in the vet squad i believe it is possible to give every marine in the squad terminator honors, if and only if the sergeant has terminator honors as well. thus, you can just use the vet squad rules instead of the ultramarines honor guard, if you wish. :] however, i still think using the smurf's honor guard and renaming everything isn't completely unacceptable, so i guess that's a method you can try as well.
-ant

Originally Posted by r4wr89

no problem. honestly, it wasn't the intention to talk down to anyone. anyways, in the vet squad i believe it is possible to give every marine in the squad terminator honors, if and only if the sergeant has terminator honors as well. thus, you can just use the vet squad rules instead of the ultramarines honor guard, if you wish. :] however, i still think using the smurf's honor guard and renaming everything isn't completely unacceptable, so i guess that's a method you can try as well.
-ant

If you don't use any traits, take the Ultramarine Honorguard. If you do, you can make a small vet squad of 5 with all termie honors, as it gets really expensive.

[Dravenguild]

Thank you, i'll get on that immediately, now one concluding question:

Can veterans with Honors take 1 pic of any wargear? Or just the heroes list?

[masterofweirdness]